Should Religous Schools Be Shut Down? (1 Viewer)

[_dhj_]

It's not about taking the moral high ground, it's about being genuinely a different group of people. I don't think 'freethinking' atheists are necessarily the type to join an insular group that claims to speak for them.

You're making the assumption that we will be a group which "fights" for rights or stands up against religions. Although that may be the preferred purpose of some within the society, it's never been mine.

 

[Enteebee]

The problem with religion is that the beliefs are not supported by observable evidence and are used to manipulate people. The structure of religion is acutally quite clever. Why not exploit that structure to promote sound beliefs?

Because that structure doesn't exactly foster an open critical mind, which is what we're after, isn't it? The problem with religion IS in a big way its structure, I don't honestly think I'd support anyone whom had come to atheism by means similar to religion, I just don't think they'd have done the working to get to their answer.

 

[seano77]

Well at least it's possible to be an atheist without saying "I'm right and you're wrong" about everything relating to a particular subject, whereas on the other hand you can't be a Christian without saying at a fundamental level that very thing you just accused atheists of saying.

I believe, based on evidence, that Jesus' claims are reliable and accurate. I have formed my beliefs on them, and I think they are right. I would change them if evidence came about to prove it wrong- I am yet to find it. It would be stupid of me to believe something without evidence. I believe God made us to be logical, reasonable etc. Why would I contradict that by not being logical? I realise that I am not the smartest person and there are heaps of smarter Atheits (and Christians) out there than me. If you are interested read to some of Ravi Zacharias articles or C.S. Lewis non-fiction books.

 

[Evan11]

Tbh I think Schro is on the money regarding you guys bitching about the religious groups, but at the same time it's kinda hard to compete against a 2000 year old organisation that permeates our society like bad american television.

But the church is our society? Whether you like it or not, western society is largely based on christianity. I realise that the balance of power is shifting, and their are firm distinctions between state and church, and it seems now in australia as though it is immoral to be pro-religion, which is ironic considering our culture up until about the 1960s. But if you look to American society (which i point out many of you are quick to do regarding many aspects of our culture), you can see a firm religious interest. Most of the world for most of the worlds existence has been based on a religion. I cant understand why some of you are SOOOOOO vehemently against it. Or are you just being anti-establishment uni students, determined not to conform but by doing so ironically just becoming one of the crowd.

my $0.02

 

[Enteebee]

But the church is our society? Whether you like it or not, western society is largely based on christianity.

Well I feel it's the other way around i.e. Christianity is largely based on 'western society', though of course it's a rather convoluted argument... However I'd just point out that the text of the bible always seems to change in its interpretation along with the changing mood of western society at the time and however you're going to go about interpreting such a text you're going to have to do it through some sort of a secular moral structure, influenced only perhaps by the religious views of your parents (but of course we'll always have slight disagreements with them).

 

[seano77]

I cant understand why some of you are SOOOOOO vehemently against it. Or are you just being anti-establishment uni students, determined not to conform but by doing so ironically just becoming one of the crowd.

my $0.02

Good point. Why are atheists so angry about something they are convinced is a lie? If its not true, there is no threat.

 

[Enteebee]

Good point. Why are atheists so angry about something they are convinced is a lie? If its not true, there is no threat.

They're not angry at god (whom they believe doesn't exist) they're rather (if anything) annoyed with the religious followers (who do exist).

 

[Evan11]

Well I feel it's the other way around i.e. Christianity is largely based on 'western society', though of course it's a rather convoluted argument... However I'd just point out that the text of the bible always seems to change in its interpretation along with the changing mood of western society at the time.

You mean how earlier society more followed the "eye for an eye" mentality, but these days its more "love thy neighbour"? sure valid point. Lets agree to say that todays society sure would be different had it not been for christianity. i wont say better or worse, but sure different.

Oh and to the guy saying how money into mosques/churches etc should have been spent better feeding the hungry. Ever been to a Sikh temple?

 

[seano77]

However I'd just point out that the text of the bible always seems to change in its interpretation along with the changing mood of western society at the time.

I'd like to agree with this statement. However, as a Christian I believe it should not be happening. The truth of the Bible is unchanging and absolute. God is unchanging, so should His word be. The interpretation should not change as some churches are in the bad habit of doing. However, the context that we live in has changed.

 

[Evan11]

Western Society is more based on the doctorine of Terra Nullius.

I am trolling.​

Fair sure william the conqueror knew there were ppl in england in 1066. Hence the troops...

 

[seano77]

They're not angry at god (whom they believe doesn't exist) they're rather (if anything) annoyed with the religious followers (who do exist).

Why would atheists be annoyed at the followers? Sure, if they claimed to be believing without evidence or reason, then their claims should be taken with a grain of salt. But what about someone like me, who has analysed the evidence and formed a belief on God from that- why is that annoying?

 

[Enteebee]

You mean how earlier society more followed the "eye for an eye" mentality, but these days its more "love thy neighbour"? sure valid point. Lets agree to say that todays society sure would be different had it not been for christianity. i wont say better or worse, but sure different.

Yeah it'd be different, but I think we'd see somewhat similar moral codes/cultural struggles pop up. I think even if the west was a 'muslim' society it would have had the enlightenment etc, it still would have had the civil rights movement and today Islam would be as interpretive and wishy washy as the modern day christian church is.

I'd like to agree with this statement. However, as a Christian I believe it should not be happening. The truth of the Bible is unchanging and absolute. God is unchanging, so should His word be. The interpretation should not change as some churches are in the bad habit of doing. However, the context that we live in has changed.

Even if God's word is absolute and unchanging, we have no way of discovering what this absolute and unchanging truth is as we're just human and will in the end (no matter how hard we try) end up interpreting things through our various spectrums.

 

[Enteebee]

Why would atheists be annoyed at the followers? Sure, if they claimed to be believing without evidence or reason, then their claims should be taken with a grain of salt. But what about someone like me, who has analysed the evidence and formed a belief on God from that- why is that annoying?

They probably just get frustrated (like many religious people do with atheists) that you don't see their truth and they feel this is detrimental to the world.

 

[Evan11]

well we will always need a few things...

beer
sex
maccas
kebabs after a late one...

with that in mind, i spose the possible scope for society really does head in one way. its really the finicky specifics that would change, such as was the beer kosher etc.

 

[Goji Berries]

Interesting point on Western culture...

I heard a lecturer say recently that Western culture is predominantely a mix of Greek thought and Judeo-Christian heritage.

We get democracy from the Greeks and equality from the Christians. (Slaves and women weren't part of the "demos" in ancient Greece.)

Similarly, Christian culture is often shaped by the dominant culture it is part of. E.g. most of the Easter, Christmas celebrations, etc., have nothing to do with Christian beliefs.

 

[seano77]

Even if God's word is absolute and unchanging, we have no way of discovering what this absolute and unchanging truth is as we're just human and will in the end (no matter how hard we try) end up interpreting things through our various spectrums.

I'd encourage you, if only for the sake of gaining further arguments against Christianity, to read C.S. Lewis's 'Mere Christianity'. He explains how morality can have no source or existence apart from God. Its called the 'transcendental argument for God' I think. It claims that there is a moral law that distinguishes right from wrong (with evidence). If there was no absolute truth, the statement that there was no absolute truth would be false, thus contradicting itself. Anyway, for details of that read the book. Good stuff.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

The truth of the Bible is unchanging and absolute. God is unchanging, so should His word be.

See there's that I'm right/you're wrong thing coming in. You can't possibly have any evidence as you claim for that statement.

And for what it's worth I can just as easily refer you to Christopher Hitchens

 

[seano77]

You read Lewis and I'll read hitchens, agreed?

 

[Evan11]

Interesting point on Western culture...

I heard a lecturer say recently that Western culture is predominantely a mix of Greek thought and Judeo-Christian heritage.

We get democracy from the Greeks and equality from the Christians. (Slaves and women weren't part of the "demos" in ancient Greece.)

Similarly, Christian culture is often shaped by the dominant culture it is part of. E.g. most of the Easter, Christmas celebrations, etc., have nothing to do with Christian beliefs.

Ok well your well informed opinion pwned my jarbled thoughts made up from tv, newspaper, friends and cynicism. Maybe what i meant to say was that, our society seemed to develop with christianity as a major part. Perhaps the culture wasnt exactly based on this (as you well pointed out), but i meant that the society progressed with this as a fundemental point.

 

[Enteebee]

I'd encourage you, if only for the sake of gaining further arguments against Christianity, to read C.S. Lewis's 'Mere Christianity'. He explains how morality can have no source or existence apart from God.Its called the 'transcendental argument for God' I think. It claims that there is a moral law that distinguishes right from wrong (with evidence).

From that blurb, I don't feel the desire to. I agree with him that for ABSOLUTE morality to exist requires some sort of supernatural intervention, but that doesn't mean that morals exist, they exist... they're just constructions of our mortal existence and not absolute truths.

If there was no absolute truth, the statement that there was no absolute truth would be false, thus contradicting itself. Anyway, for details of that read the book. Good stuff.

Well I actually think there are absolute truths, just that we don't have the faculty to ever fully prove/discover them - I do think for the most part we can use some good constructed truths to form the basis for our reality.

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I heard a lecturer say recently that Western culture is predominantely a mix of Greek thought and Judeo-Christian heritage.

We get democracy from the Greeks and equality from the Christians. (Slaves and women weren't part of the "demos" in ancient Greece.)

Similarly, Christian culture is often shaped by the dominant culture it is part of. E.g. most of the Easter, Christmas celebrations, etc., have nothing to do with Christian beliefs.

Well even like the whole idea of 'christian' concepts is kinda misleading imo, for the most part they're derived from the musings of saints (i.e. mortal men, such as st augustine who imo would have made their mark whether born to a world of christianity or one of islam, but i spose that's contentious).