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Special APEC Laws (relating to police powers) (3 Viewers)

jimmayyy

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townie said:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/crackdown-on-nasty-summit-protesters/2007/05/19/1179497333146.html

Absolutley fucking disgusting is all i can say, and an absolute disgrace in my mind. This whole fucking country has gone to shit on fear or terrorism, yeah sure "they" havent won. *shakes head*
thats a bit of a simplistic way of looking at it. i wonder what your reaction would be if there were no increases in security since 9/11 and APEC was successfully targeted by terrorism and thousands of innocents were killed.

there is a difference between "letting them win" and at least putting up a fight. just because we can't defeat terrorism with actions like this doesn't mean we shouldn't still implement them to at least help.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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thats a bit of a simplistic way of looking at it. i wonder what your reaction would be if there were no increases in security since 9/11 and APEC was successfully targeted by terrorism and thousands of innocents were killed.

there is a difference between "letting them win" and at least putting up a fight. just because we can't defeat terrorism with actions like this doesn't mean we shouldn't still implement them to at least help.
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, dad. By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps bears away.

Homer:Oh? How does it work?

Lisa:It doesn't work...it's just a stupid rock! But I don't see any bears around do you?

Homer:Lisa, I want to buy your rock!

---

Homer [after one bear attack]: I'm sick of these CONSTANT bear attacks! It's like a freaking country bear jamberoo around 'ere!
 

Jarsh89

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You must remember that several attacks have happened over the past couple of years, not just 911. Also in the past three years, two attacks have been successfully stopped by the government in Australia, with great help from the new laws. It is not a empty threat.

Personally I think that the protesters creating all this hassle are the ones who are giving victory to the terrorists. If you just got on with your lives and didn't stress so much about it, they would get no attention.
 

veridis

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cause yeah if it wasn't for the protesters we'd all be getting on with our lives rather than having our city shutdown and facing severe restrictions on our right to free speech, freedom of accosiation and freedom to assemble.....
 

Josie

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veridis said:
cause yeah if it wasn't for the protesters we'd all be getting on with our lives rather than having our city shutdown and facing severe restrictions on our right to free speech, freedom of accosiation and freedom to assemble.....
Of course. Protesters are the bad guys.
 

Nebuchanezzar

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It's also quite laughable to suggest that if there were no protestors, then the security measures wouldn't be there. Don't make me bring out my rock example again.

You must remember that several attacks have happened over the past couple of years, not just 911. Also in the past three years, two attacks have been successfully stopped by the government in Australia, with great help from the new laws. It is not a empty threat.
And yet Australia is no no greater, or no less peril than it ever was in relative to terror. One might say that we're in greater peril given that we're in Iraq and sympathetic to the American cause, but I seriously doubt that given that terror attacks have been pretty much constant throughout the 20th century (or so). Consider also that there are far greater perils that Australia is in, compared to terrorism. Is it any empty threat? No. Is it a threat that has caused far too many sacrifices and used far too many resources relative to its importance? I'd say so.

Personally I think that the protesters creating all this hassle are the ones who are giving victory to the terrorists.
Because they're terrified, amirite?
 

jimmayyy

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Schroedinger said:

"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
i would like to know the specific essential liberties that we are "sacrificing"

if its the right for hippies to cause damage to public property, thats neither essential nor really a right.
 

jimmayyy

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Nebuchanezzar said:
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, dad. By your logic, I could claim that this rock keeps bears away.

Homer:Oh? How does it work?

Lisa:It doesn't work...it's just a stupid rock! But I don't see any bears around do you?

Homer:Lisa, I want to buy your rock!

---

Homer [after one bear attack]: I'm sick of these CONSTANT bear attacks! It's like a freaking country bear jamberoo around 'ere!
o right theres only been one terrorist attack in history lulz my bad. your insinuation that worldwide step ups in security arent the very reason there hasn't been a major (successful) attack on the western world is in itself specious. how the fuck do you know that everything the govt has done hasn't actually prevented dozens?

why do you think america hasn't been successfully attacked again?
 

Nebuchanezzar

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o right theres only been one terrorist attack in history lulz my bad.
You took my example far too literally. Fool.

But yeah, the measures put in place to prevent terrorism are pretty disproportionate, which was my point, douche.

your insinuation that worldwide step ups in security arent the very reason there hasn't been a major (successful) attack on the western world is in itself specious. how the fuck do you know that everything the govt has done hasn't actually prevented dozens?
Ooooh how subversive. Turn what I said around AND IT STILL WORKS! oOoOoOoOoOh. You see, thing is, there weren't too many terror attacks before 9/11, nor have there been too many afterward. If I were statistician (and I'm not, but I can say this with a fair amount of authority) then I would say that there appears to be very little correlation between $$$ spent on counter-terrorism measures, and terror attacks. That's not specious reasoning, that's common sense.
 

Jarsh89

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Going into Iraq was a mistake, anyone can see this now so you shouldn't feel proud for saying it. However you can't expect the governments to admit they were wrong, governments don't do that. They thought there was WMD's in there so they went, this has led to a higher risk of attack but what do you expect us to do now? Just pull out and leave the country even more fuked up then it was when we went it?

If we could go back in time we would never have gone in, and never have needed these measures because we wouldn't have pissed of the terrorists, but we can't change it now, we just have to make sure we don't make the same mistake with Iran or Nth Korea in the future...

"Because Al Qaeda doesn't exist in the capacity that it has been reported continuously?
It's three moron idiots in a tent with AK's and copies of the Koran."


(Al Qaeda is behind many of the attacks in Iraq, although the media has blown them up, they are a lot more than 3 men in a tent.) <-- Bloody italics wouldn't turn off...


 

Nebuchanezzar

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, we just have to make sure we don't make the same mistake with Iran or Nth Korea in the future...
And protesting is one way to show leaders that people aren't terribly pleased with what they've done.
 

jimmayyy

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Nebuchanezzar said:
You took my example far too literally. Fool.

But yeah, the measures put in place to prevent terrorism are pretty disproportionate, which was my point, douche.



Ooooh how subversive. Turn what I said around AND IT STILL WORKS! oOoOoOoOoOh. You see, thing is, there weren't too many terror attacks before 9/11, nor have there been too many afterward. If I were statistician (and I'm not, but I can say this with a fair amount of authority) then I would say that there appears to be very little correlation between $$$ spent on counter-terrorism measures, and terror attacks. That's not specious reasoning, that's common sense.
you'd be a shit statistician then, my friend.

muslim-inducted terrorist attacks (seeings as how that is what we are discussing) on the west;

1972 - Four PLO terrorists hijacked a Sabena airliner carrying 99 passengers and ten crew members on route from Brussels to Tel Aviv. In a mission titled "Operation Isotope", 16 members of Sayeret Matkal posed as refueling and technical personnel and stormed the plane, killing the terrorists and releasing the passengers.

1972 - September 5: Black September kidnaps and kills eleven Israeli Olympic athletes and one German policeman in the Munich Massacre.

1973 - Chopin-Express: Two Arab terrorists hijack the Chopin-Express from Moscow to Vienna at the East-West border in Marchegg.

1974 - September 8: TWA Flight 841: Bomb kills 88 on jetliner. Attributed to Abu Nidal and his Muslim terror organization

1975 - In the Savoy Operation PLO gunmen from Lebanon take dozens of hostages at the Tel Aviv Savoy Hotel eventually killing eight hostages and three IDF soldiers, and wounding eleven hostages

1977 - Three buildings in Washington, DC are seized by members of the militant African-American Muslim Hanafi sect and over 100 hostages taken. One bystander is shot and killed, and Washington city councilman Marion Barry is shot in the chest. After a two-day standoff all hostages are released from the District Building (city hall), B'nai B'rith headquarters, and the Islamic Center

1978 - Fatah gunmen killed several tourists and hijack a bus near Haifa; 37 Israelis on the bus are killed

1980 - A member of the Abu Nidal Organization carried out a grenade attack on a group of Jews waiting for a bus in Antwerp, Belgium, killing a child and wounding twenty others. Said Al Nasr will be convicted for this act.

1981 - Machine gun and grenade attack on the Stadttempel synagogue in Vienna, killing two people and wounding 23. Marwan Hasan and Hesham Mohammed Rajeh were convicted

1982 - Four people are wounded when a synagogue in Brussels is attacked in a "shoot and run" incident. Guards were taken by surprise and the gunman, believed to be from the Abu Nidal Organization, escaped.

1985 - Paris Marks & Spencer shop, one bomb, one dead, 18 wounded, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hezbollah.

1985 - TWA Flight 847 skyjacking, Hezbollah, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists. Terrorists take passengers of an Athens-Rome flight hostage, murdering US Navy Seaman, Robert Stethem

1985 - Two near-simultaneous bombs in Copenhagen, at the Jewish synagogue and at the offices of Northwest Orient, explode, killing one and injuring 32. The bombers are interrupted while placing a third, more powerful, bomb, which they later dispose of in the city's harbour. The bombs are later linked to Islamic Jihad.

1985 - Paris, Galeries Lafayette and Printemps shops, two bombs, 51 injured, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah

1986 - Paris, Claridge passage (Champs Élysées) seven injured, another bomb failed to explode in the Eiffel tower, pro-Iranian (Fouad Ali Saleh group)

1988 - Pan Am Flight 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, UK. At the time, it was the worst act of terrorism perpetrated against the United States, and involved the greatest number of peacetime fatalities (270) in the United Kingdom. Just over 12 years after the event, at the conclusion of the Pan Am Flight 103 bombing trial, a Libyan agent, Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, was convicted on 270 counts of murder and was sentenced to life imprisonment. Libya subsequently agreed to pay relatives of the Lockerbie bombing victims $2.7 billion ($10 million each) in compensation

1990 (PS this is a good one) - Assassination of Meir Kahane head of Israel's Koch party and founder of the American vigilante group the Jewish Defense League in a Manhattan, New York hotel lobby by early elements of Al Queda.

1992 - Israeli Embassy bombing by "Islamic Jihad" in Buenos Aires, Argentina; 29 killed, 242 injured

1992 - he Iranian embassy in Ottawa is stormed by members of MEK, an Iraq-supported religious right group

1993 - Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters, killing two and injuring three others

1993 - World Trade Center bombing kills six and injures over 1000 people, by coalition of five groups: Jamaat Al-Fuqra'/Gamaat Islamiya/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/National Islamic Front,

1994 - Israeli Embassy Attack in London and a Jewish charity are car-bombed, wounding 20. Attributed by Britain, Argentina, and Israel to Hezbollah.

1994 - Air France Flight 8969 is hijacked by GIA members who planned to crash the plane on Paris but didn't succeed.

1995 - Bombings in France by a GIA unit led by Khaled Kelkal kill eight and injure more than 100.

1997 - Ali Abu Kamal opens fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, United States, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claims this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine". His widow claimed he became suicidal after losing $300,000 in a business venture. In a 2007 interview with the New York Daily News his daughter said her mothers story was a cover crafted by the Palestinian Authority and that her father wanted to punish the United States for its support of Israel.[91]

2000 - USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors and wounds 40 off the port coast of Aden, Yemen, by al-Qaeda, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, the Buffalo Six Lackawanna Cell.[104]

2001 - Attacks kill 2,997 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two U.S. landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane, originally intended to hit the United States Capital Building, crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, after an apparent revolt against the hijackers by the plane's passengers; by Al-Qaeda.


2004 - Coordinated bombing of commuter trains in Madrid, Spain, kills 191 people and injures more than 1,500. Al-Qaeda authorship.

2004 - Jakarta embassy bombing, in which the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, killing 8 people

2005 - London bombings – Bombs explode on one double-decker bus and three London Underground trains, killing 56 people and injuring over 700, occurring on the first day of the 31st G8 Conference

2006 - An Afghani Muslim hit 19 pedestrians, killing one, with his SUV in the San Francisco Bay area

2006 - Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, an Iranian-born graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, drives an SUV onto a crowded part of campus, injuring nine.

2007 - Glasgow International Airport attack, 2007 London car bombs, 2007 UK terrorist incidents. Car bomb plot suspected Al-Qaeda. At Glasgow Airport car rams into main terminal causing minor injuries to five and setting off blaze. Explosive device caught fire instead of detonating. In London's West End attempt to set off two car bombs by suspected cell phone triggers fail. One car is towed before device is discovered in underground car park. Police link two incidents. Police find suicide notes on two suspects in London incident.[207] Eight men arrested. One Glasgow suspect critically burned. One of the five men could be an associate of Dhiren Bharot a high level Al-Qaeda operative. Authorities say London bombs could have caused "significant loss of life".[208][209] The two incidents have been linked, by police, to the same two people


SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

keep in mind that they are just the ones i picked out that were aimed at western countries or commited in western countries by militants who are driven by extremist islam.

i'd stick to your day job, pal.

also interesting - failed attacks (thanks to..oh i dont know, increased security, maybe?);

2007 - John F. Kennedy International Airport terror plot. Thwarted homegrown Islamist terrorism plot to destroy the fuel supply system for the airport located in New York City and cause a large amount of causalities by blowing up the connecting pipeline system that runs through densely populated neighborhoods.

2007 - 2007 Fort Dix attack plot Six men inspired by Jihadist videos arrested in the US, in a failed homegrown terrorism plot to kill US soldiers.

2006 - A major anti-terrorist operation disrupts an alleged bomb plot targeting multiple airplanes bound for the United States flying through Heathrow Airport, near London, UK.


pretty much puts your little theory to bed.
 

chicky_pie

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jimmayyy said:
you'd be a shit statistician then, my friend.

muslim-inducted terrorist attacks (seeings as how that is what we are discussing) on the west;

1972 - Four PLO terrorists hijacked a Sabena airliner carrying 99 passengers and ten crew members on route from Brussels to Tel Aviv. In a mission titled "Operation Isotope", 16 members of Sayeret Matkal posed as refueling and technical personnel and stormed the plane, killing the terrorists and releasing the passengers.

1972 - September 5: Black September kidnaps and kills eleven Israeli Olympic athletes and one German policeman in the Munich Massacre.

1973 - Chopin-Express: Two Arab terrorists hijack the Chopin-Express from Moscow to Vienna at the East-West border in Marchegg.

1974 - September 8: TWA Flight 841: Bomb kills 88 on jetliner. Attributed to Abu Nidal and his Muslim terror organization

1975 - In the Savoy Operation PLO gunmen from Lebanon take dozens of hostages at the Tel Aviv Savoy Hotel eventually killing eight hostages and three IDF soldiers, and wounding eleven hostages

1977 - Three buildings in Washington, DC are seized by members of the militant African-American Muslim Hanafi sect and over 100 hostages taken. One bystander is shot and killed, and Washington city councilman Marion Barry is shot in the chest. After a two-day standoff all hostages are released from the District Building (city hall), B'nai B'rith headquarters, and the Islamic Center

1978 - Fatah gunmen killed several tourists and hijack a bus near Haifa; 37 Israelis on the bus are killed

1980 - A member of the Abu Nidal Organization carried out a grenade attack on a group of Jews waiting for a bus in Antwerp, Belgium, killing a child and wounding twenty others. Said Al Nasr will be convicted for this act.

1981 - Machine gun and grenade attack on the Stadttempel synagogue in Vienna, killing two people and wounding 23. Marwan Hasan and Hesham Mohammed Rajeh were convicted

1982 - Four people are wounded when a synagogue in Brussels is attacked in a "shoot and run" incident. Guards were taken by surprise and the gunman, believed to be from the Abu Nidal Organization, escaped.

1985 - Paris Marks & Spencer shop, one bomb, one dead, 18 wounded, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hezbollah.

1985 - TWA Flight 847 skyjacking, Hezbollah, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists. Terrorists take passengers of an Athens-Rome flight hostage, murdering US Navy Seaman, Robert Stethem

1985 - Two near-simultaneous bombs in Copenhagen, at the Jewish synagogue and at the offices of Northwest Orient, explode, killing one and injuring 32. The bombers are interrupted while placing a third, more powerful, bomb, which they later dispose of in the city's harbour. The bombs are later linked to Islamic Jihad.

1985 - Paris, Galeries Lafayette and Printemps shops, two bombs, 51 injured, attributed to pro-Iranian Lebanese Hizbollah

1986 - Paris, Claridge passage (Champs Élysées) seven injured, another bomb failed to explode in the Eiffel tower, pro-Iranian (Fouad Ali Saleh group)

1988 - Pan Am Flight 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, UK. At the time, it was the worst act of terrorism perpetrated against the United States, and involved the greatest number of peacetime fatalities (270) in the United Kingdom. Just over 12 years after the event, at the conclusion of the Pan Am Flight 103 bombing trial, a Libyan agent, Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, was convicted on 270 counts of murder and was sentenced to life imprisonment. Libya subsequently agreed to pay relatives of the Lockerbie bombing victims $2.7 billion ($10 million each) in compensation

1990 (PS this is a good one) - Assassination of Meir Kahane head of Israel's Koch party and founder of the American vigilante group the Jewish Defense League in a Manhattan, New York hotel lobby by early elements of Al Queda.

1992 - Israeli Embassy bombing by "Islamic Jihad" in Buenos Aires, Argentina; 29 killed, 242 injured

1992 - he Iranian embassy in Ottawa is stormed by members of MEK, an Iraq-supported religious right group

1993 - Mir Aimal Kansi, a Pakistani, fires an AK-47 assault rifle into cars waiting at a stoplight in front of the Central Intelligence Agency headquarters, killing two and injuring three others

1993 - World Trade Center bombing kills six and injures over 1000 people, by coalition of five groups: Jamaat Al-Fuqra'/Gamaat Islamiya/Hamas/Islamic Jihad/National Islamic Front,

1994 - Israeli Embassy Attack in London and a Jewish charity are car-bombed, wounding 20. Attributed by Britain, Argentina, and Israel to Hezbollah.

1994 - Air France Flight 8969 is hijacked by GIA members who planned to crash the plane on Paris but didn't succeed.

1995 - Bombings in France by a GIA unit led by Khaled Kelkal kill eight and injure more than 100.

1997 - Ali Abu Kamal opens fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, United States, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claims this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine". His widow claimed he became suicidal after losing $300,000 in a business venture. In a 2007 interview with the New York Daily News his daughter said her mothers story was a cover crafted by the Palestinian Authority and that her father wanted to punish the United States for its support of Israel.[91]

2000 - USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors and wounds 40 off the port coast of Aden, Yemen, by al-Qaeda, see FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, the Buffalo Six Lackawanna Cell.[104]

2001 - Attacks kill 2,997 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two U.S. landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane, originally intended to hit the United States Capital Building, crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania, after an apparent revolt against the hijackers by the plane's passengers; by Al-Qaeda.


2004 - Coordinated bombing of commuter trains in Madrid, Spain, kills 191 people and injures more than 1,500. Al-Qaeda authorship.

2004 - Jakarta embassy bombing, in which the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, killing 8 people

2005 - London bombings – Bombs explode on one double-decker bus and three London Underground trains, killing 56 people and injuring over 700, occurring on the first day of the 31st G8 Conference

2006 - An Afghani Muslim hit 19 pedestrians, killing one, with his SUV in the San Francisco Bay area

2006 - Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, an Iranian-born graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, drives an SUV onto a crowded part of campus, injuring nine.

2007 - Glasgow International Airport attack, 2007 London car bombs, 2007 UK terrorist incidents. Car bomb plot suspected Al-Qaeda. At Glasgow Airport car rams into main terminal causing minor injuries to five and setting off blaze. Explosive device caught fire instead of detonating. In London's West End attempt to set off two car bombs by suspected cell phone triggers fail. One car is towed before device is discovered in underground car park. Police link two incidents. Police find suicide notes on two suspects in London incident.[207] Eight men arrested. One Glasgow suspect critically burned. One of the five men could be an associate of Dhiren Bharot a high level Al-Qaeda operative. Authorities say London bombs could have caused "significant loss of life".[208][209] The two incidents have been linked, by police, to the same two people


SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

keep in mind that they are just the ones i picked out that were aimed at western countries or commited in western countries by militants who are driven by extremist islam.

i'd stick to your day job, pal.

also interesting - failed attacks (thanks to..oh i dont know, increased security, maybe?);

2007 - John F. Kennedy International Airport terror plot. Thwarted homegrown Islamist terrorism plot to destroy the fuel supply system for the airport located in New York City and cause a large amount of causalities by blowing up the connecting pipeline system that runs through densely populated neighborhoods.

2007 - 2007 Fort Dix attack plot Six men inspired by Jihadist videos arrested in the US, in a failed homegrown terrorism plot to kill US soldiers.

2006 - A major anti-terrorist operation disrupts an alleged bomb plot targeting multiple airplanes bound for the United States flying through Heathrow Airport, near London, UK.


pretty much puts your little theory to bed.

forgot to add Bali bombings, lol too bad Indonesia lost tourists after that
 

onebytwo

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Jarsh89 said:
They thought there was WMD's in there so they went, this has led to a higher risk of attack but what do you expect us to do now?
if we you are going to debate a conflict between two party's and determine which group is at fault, you dont use evidence that is provided by one of those groups. for all we know WMDs could be a myth (which it is imo)
Just pull out and leave the country even more fuked up then it was when we went it?
like the US cares?

If we could go back in time we would never have gone in, and never have needed these measures because we wouldn't have pissed of the terrorists,
says whom?
but we can't change it now, we just have to make sure we don't make the same mistake with Iran or Nth Korea in the future...
by doing what? by not doing what?
 

Nebuchanezzar

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From that list, it almost appears as if hardly any terror attacks have been thwarted since 9/11...I therefore fail to see the correlation between $ spent and terror attacks prevented.
 

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