Specialities with best work/life balance? (2 Viewers)

[Medman]

UNSW and USYD are definitely tier 1 but not sure about Newcastle.

At the end of the day people who move into these specialties are generally those that are really passionate and driven especially for the super competitive specialties. Generally the super competitive specialties are the ones that have the best work/life balance and great pay.

 

[RishBonjour99]

I hear this too. This is why I feel we medical people complain more than we should. Surgery, however, is a physical workout and you need to have both great physical and mental stamina to be constantly alert at odd hours of the day. Re: chasing clients, I am not sure what this entails specifically, but you will have to deal with complex patients and difficult interpersonal relationships in most aspects of clinical medicine.

Not sure about competition to get into firms, but comparison to getting into medicine is the wrong comparison. Compare it to getting into a top tier hospital for internship or getting into a training program ie dermatology - like other career pathways, it's not just about having the smarts, but also knowing people. If you want the money, commerce/law is by far a better investment - medicine is harder work for the money you earn. If you want job security, medicine is better.

By chasing clients, I mean sucking up to them and having no control over your life/hours. I understand medicine has quite a bit of that as well because of references etc but I'll manage.

Yes you're right, I did the wrong comparison but I think its because when people our age talk about 'medicine' they talk about 'getting into it' whereas many people doing comm/law see it only as a stepping stone into IB - which is extremely difficult, and surviving there is another story. But with so many med grads coming out, I have no doubt it will be very difficult to get into top specialties (it already is) or he hired into top hospitals. Which leads to my initial question again, to what extent does university matter for medicine? I know very well university makes a huge difference in top tier jobs (e.g. some SPECIFICALLY mention 'you are invited to apply if you're from usyd, unsw, and the other Go8s' because that's where all the top students are - i.e. UTS/MQ doesn't even get an opportunity to apply straight for grad roles there) I'm just unsure about med because there are plenty off 99.7+ kids in Newcastle/UWS and 98 kids in UNSW. USYD is a different story because its post grad and I know some with relatively low atars get in after completing science/med sci.

Echoing strongly with everything you said here. I was tossing up between law, med and dent (UNSW med and law, UQ dent so "tier 1" I guess) and chose med for similar reasons as you.

Are you interested in the "science" side of medicine as well? Law to med is a pretty big jump academically.

Dent was never even a slight consideration for me. It is dull with not much to offer (although it has $$$, rather do something interesting like IB/Consulting if money was the issue). I don't understand why people would CHOSE to do dent over medicine aside from maybe having more control over your life/private practice (you could do that with med too).

Yep, I did bio and phys in the hsc and they were my best non-maths units so definitely into science. I don't think law to med is a big jump at all, they are both rigorous degrees so study wise hopefully transition won't be too difficult (Except med has WAY more content to memorise). One of the guys I know that changed from unsw law to med is around the top of the cohort now - this guy didn't do 1 science subject in the HSC, all humanities. You just have to smart and hardworking, you can do anything you want if you can learn things fast enough.

 

[RishBonjour99]

UNSW and USYD are definitely tier 1 but not sure about Newcastle.

At the end of the day people who move into these specialties are generally those that are really passionate and driven especially for the super competitive specialties. Generally the super competitive specialties are the ones that have the best work/life balance and great pay.

Yeah I mean its only natural that there will be 'tiers' of schools given so many med schools are out now.

I was searching up some stuff on it, but did see a few B. Med Newcastle in head of department roles for some hospitals (cardiology) so was a bit surprised (but I guess the med school is quite old compared to uws/anu etc etc that opened up in the 2000s?). Majority are USYD as expected.
But I'm fine with 'starting at the bottom'. Did that for my high school, fairly confident I can do it again with med if I chose to study it. I've planned on asking a few doctors if I can shadow them over this year.

 

[Schmeag]

In my experience, which medical school you come from doesn't mean anything at all - if it does, then it means nothing when it comes to applying for specialties. What clinical school you come from may make a difference - some hospitals will preference medical students that have spent time in that hospital. With the exception of those few hospitals, most will be more than willing to take students outside of their own clinical schools (they'll simply look for the best or those who present an image that fits with the desired characteristics). As such if you want to improve your chances, perhaps pick a specialty, preference a hospital/hospitals renowned in that specialty to go to clinical school, pick a university that runs that clinical school and become known to the relevant people.

That is what I would--in hindsight--recommend. Or you could do as I did and coast through without a clue (no regrets). Either way, best of luck. I am from interstate, so I don't know if this applies elsewhere.

 

[bangladesh]

UNSW and USYD are definitely tier 1 but not sure about Newcastle.

At the end of the day people who move into these specialties are generally those that are really passionate and driven especially for the super competitive specialties. Generally the super competitive specialties are the ones that have the best work/life balance and great pay.

I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that the JMP is 5th or 6th across the whole country.

 

[iStudent]

I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that the JMP is 5th or 6th across the whole country.

Is that because they first used pbl in their course?

 

[Medman]

In my experience, which medical school you come from doesn't mean anything at all - if it does, then it means nothing when it comes to applying for specialties. What clinical school you come from may make a difference - some hospitals will preference medical students that have spent time in that hospital. With the exception of those few hospitals, most will be more than willing to take students outside of their own clinical schools (they'll simply look for the best or those who present an image that fits with the desired characteristics). As such if you want to improve your chances, perhaps pick a specialty, preference a hospital/hospitals renowned in that specialty to go to clinical school, pick a university that runs that clinical school and become known to the relevant people.

That is what I would--in hindsight--recommend. Or you could do as I did and coast through without a clue (no regrets). Either way, best of luck. I am from interstate, so I don't know if this applies elsewhere.

I agree that it shouldn't. However just had a talk with my USYD colleagues. Your research opportunities may suffer if you do not go to a prestigious university. The issue lies in funding and how much impact they have on a global level. I don't know if this is true but apparently last year's UWS university medal winner did a research project based on audits in a Sydney hospital but it didn't get published. This pales to comparison to USYD students that got published in extremely renowned journals such as Lancet (This is the second highest impact factor journal in medicine behind NEJM) and top specialty journals not to mention the awards they also win. I personally don't like this discrepancy but this is what happens. Also going to a prestigious university does not guarantee you these "extra" opportunities as you need to put in a lot of effort. Most of the people who made an impact in this area were the 100 and 99.95's of HSC past.

 

[Schmeag]

I didn't consider that and this might be true. I have had many who found their research years to be wasteful other than to teach them how hard good research actually is. If you can get it right, it could be useful to your specialty and going to a university that will enable you to do that will help. Again, pick your speciality, look up the nature and quality of the projects and academia in that field, get known to the right people. I did not do any research though, so my experience is limited.

On a side note, I thought NEJM was the hot journal nowadays. How long ago was BMJ the top journal?

 

[Kiraken]

I didn't consider that and this might be true. I have had many who found their research years to be wasteful other than to teach them how hard good research actually is. If you can get it right, it could be useful to your specialty and going to a university that will enable you to do that will help. Again, pick your speciality, look up the nature and quality of the projects and academia in that field, get known to the right people. I did not do any research though, so my experience is limited.

On a side note, I thought NEJM was the hot journal nowadays. How long ago was BMJ the top journal?

i was under the assumption that both are pretty hot

 

[Medman]

I didn't consider that and this might be true. I have had many who found their research years to be wasteful other than to teach them how hard good research actually is. If you can get it right, it could be useful to your specialty and going to a university that will enable you to do that will help. Again, pick your speciality, look up the nature and quality of the projects and academia in that field, get known to the right people. I did not do any research though, so my experience is limited.

On a side note, I thought NEJM was the hot journal nowadays. How long ago was BMJ the top journal?

Sorry I meant NEJM.

Was talking to registrar today, her Medical Oncology doctor couldn't find a job so now he is doing a PHD. Her renal AT friend could not find a job in second year of their training.

It's all about the research nowadays. If you can't bring anything additional to your hospital they will just pick someone else more qualified than you.

 

[Schmeag]

Sorry I meant NEJM.

Was talking to registrar today, her Medical Oncology doctor couldn't find a job so now he is doing a PHD. Her renal AT friend could not find a job in second year of their training.

It's all about the research nowadays. If you can't bring anything additional to your hospital they will just pick someone else more qualified than you.

I disagree. If we are talking about anecdotal "friend of a friend" stories, then it's a case by case basis--specialty factors in strongly, as does if you are liked by your superiors. Newly minted consultants make it through without having a shred of research to their names. At the same time, there are trainees or residents with publications or postgraduate degrees who struggle to get into training positions every year. Why?

In my opinion, research for research's sake is not the magic fix; it is viewed in context with the other qualities espoused on one's CV and references and what and where one is applying for.

 

[Kiraken]

I disagree. If we are talking about anecdotal "friend of a friend" stories, then it's a case by case basis--specialty factors in strongly, as does if you are liked by your superiors. Newly minted consultants make it through without having a shred of research to their names. At the same time, there are trainees or residents with publications or postgraduate degrees who struggle to get into training positions every year. Why?

In my opinion, research for research's sake is not the magic fix; it is viewed in context with the other qualities espoused on one's CV and references and what and where one is applying for.

Yeah i talked to one of my consultants and it appears as if the connections you make as well as how those above u in the hospital hierarchy view you plays a huge role in ur future career prospects if u seek to specialise.

Having said that, i have also heard that for a lot of the more competitive surgical specialties, research has pretty much become a must to be competitive

 

[MiseryParade]

Having said that, i have also heard that for a lot of the more competitive surgical specialties, research has pretty much become a must to be competitive

UNSW has a compulsory research year called (ILP) in fourth year - do you think this could be helpful at all to get a foot in the door, as far as becoming a competitive applicant goes?

 

[Schmeag]

UNSW has a compulsory research year called (ILP) in fourth year - do you think this could be helpful at all to get a foot in the door, as far as becoming a competitive applicant goes?

My question for you is: an applicant for what? Decide what specialty you want and get known to the relevant people. An endocrinology paper in the NEJM will get you a step to endocrinology (where a PhD is close to a must), but will count very little for Infectious Diseases. Research in medical school could be a bit early as a lot of people don't know what they want to do. As for a compulsory research year, it depends on how you use it. I'll reiterate: research for research's sake means little in clinical medicine.

Re: surgery and research
- good research in surgery is hard to come by as everything is pretty much operator dependent (biases)
- as far as I know, it is compulsory to undertake at least a form of audit or presentation (does not need to be published) - best check the RACS website to be sure
- research is used as a means of knowing the relevant people, your references will count for significantly more in surgery than any research

 

[MiseryParade]

My question for you is: an applicant for what? Decide what specialty you want and get known to the relevant people. An endocrinology paper in the NEJM will get you a step to endocrinology (where a PhD is close to a must), but will count very little for Infectious Diseases. Research in medical school could be a bit early as a lot of people don't know what they want to do. As for a compulsory research year, it depends on how you use it. I'll reiterate: research for research's sake means little in clinical medicine.

Re: surgery and research
- good research in surgery is hard to come by as everything is pretty much operator dependent (biases)
- as far as I know, it is compulsory to undertake at least a form of audit or presentation (does not need to be published) - best check the RACS website to be sure
- research is used as a means of knowing the relevant people, your references will count for significantly more in surgery than any research

I know that I haven't even started med yet, but I think I'm interested in something surgical, or maybe oncology-related. I fully expect this to change at least a hundred times in the next six years - but assuming that it doesn't, how best should I utilise my year of research? If research means little in surgery, how exactly do you gain access to the references and the "relevant people" as a medical student? Is that even possible? s:

 

[Medman]

I disagree. If we are talking about anecdotal "friend of a friend" stories, then it's a case by case basis--specialty factors in strongly, as does if you are liked by your superiors. Newly minted consultants make it through without having a shred of research to their names. At the same time, there are trainees or residents with publications or postgraduate degrees who struggle to get into training positions every year. Why?

In my opinion, research for research's sake is not the magic fix; it is viewed in context with the other qualities espoused on one's CV and references and what and where one is applying for.

You are talking about 10 years ago. Have you spoken to any of the consultants lately? Every single one of them has told me to do research, this does apply to competitive specialties though but almost everything is competitive now. If you are referring to regional or rural hospitals sure but urban hospitals especially those closer to the CBD are a shot in the dark. I personally know of the Dux of Monash and Intern of the Year get beaten out of a spot at Westmead because he did not have a PHD. Someone from another country who finished at the same time as him and got the job instead. Yes there are more factors than just purely research but when talking about consultant jobs I think it counts more than you think.

I do agree with you research for research's sake is almost useless but as it gets more competitive students need to look more into the future than ever before.

Too be honest I would rather be safe than sorry despite all this being heresay. Also if it was heresay consultants would not be saying the same thing.

 

[Medman]

I know that I haven't even started med yet, but I think I'm interested in something surgical, or maybe oncology-related. I fully expect this to change at least a hundred times in the next six years - but assuming that it doesn't, how best should I utilise my year of research? If research means little in surgery, how exactly do you gain access to the references and the "relevant people" as a medical student? Is that even possible? s:

He means good research is hard to come by in surgery due to biases but that is the nature of surgery itself and therefore will never be eliminated but there are still surgical research being published. I know of someone just published in Lancet and his project was related to surgery. That being said there are research being done not just purely on the techniques of surgery. Was originally involved in a research project using a computer program to predict the volume of breast tissue removed for a masectomy based on pictures and a computer modelling program. I know of people doing wound healing projects post op dressings, antibiotic prophylaxis etc. It's not just about the surgical technique but anything relating to it. Don't forget you can also do combined projects with other specialties.

This is already off topic.

 

[Schmeag]

You are talking about 10 years ago. Have you spoken to any of the consultants lately?

Today, yesterday--literally consultants who started their first consultancy (ie not fellowship) jobs at an urban hospital and did no research. Research is like IV fluids--a lack of it might not be the cause of problem but it's the first thing people go to when **** hits the fan and might actually masking the actual problem (relatively worse references, CV, interview...etc.)--without the actual shortlist and criteria, can the applicants themselves tell for sure what's lacking? Simply put, research could be good, but good references are better, and you should be focused on meeting the image/criteria of your future employer/job, therefore (specialty dependent):

Too be honest I would rather be safe than sorry despite all this being heresay.

True. Medical students should still, however, be at liberty to enjoy the remainder of their non-working days (within reason).

In other words, I would say it's not necessarily all about the research. Yes, as per Medman this is Off Topic, so I'll say no more in this regard. Feel free to PM me for further discussion.

 

[Medman]

Today, yesterday--literally consultants who started their first consultancy (ie not fellowship) jobs at an urban hospital and did no research. Research is like IV fluids--a lack of it might not be the cause of problem but it's the first thing people go to when **** hits the fan and might actually masking the actual problem (relatively worse references, CV, interview...etc.)--without the actual shortlist and criteria, can the applicants themselves tell for sure what's lacking? Simply put, research could be good, but good references are better, and you should be focused on meeting the image/criteria of your future employer/job, therefore (specialty dependent):
True. Medical students should still, however, be at liberty to enjoy the remainder of their non-working days (within reason).

In other words, I would say it's not necessarily all about the research. Yes, as per Medman this is Off Topic, so I'll say no more in this regard. Feel free to PM me for further discussion.

Consultants previously did walk in because there was an excess in jobs and training positions available and there wasn't 1400 med school graduates per year. Well said you may be right to a degree. But do remember research can count for a heavy component on the CV itself. References and interview are definitely important for AT positions. Also don't forget many consultants actually look favourably on doctors pursuing research or involved in research so indirectly it will help your references.

End of the day yes do enjoy medical school days and don't get holed up in research especially when you don't know what you want to do. If you have a burning passion and medical school only affirms it then do put your hand up and get involved.

 

[Bearman]

I've never heard of tiers for med programs and certainly wouldn't let it be a deal-breaker in picking a university. I'd prefer to do 2 years as an unaccredited reg (maybe doing a masters, getting more references or doing research) than spend an extra 2 years in uni to do a research project which may or may not be published.

EDIT: Also, a lot of colleges stipulate that your research needs to be published within 5 years of applying for that college, so it should only really be a consideration in your last 2 years or so of your med degree.