Specific Qs on Law @ USYD vs UNSW (2 Viewers)

[Trans4M]

1. Marking: After looking at course outlines, I noticed UNSW has a MUCH heavier focus on class participation and group assignments. Further i have heard that all law finals are open book. How does this generally impact on grades and scaling? Is it difficult to get ds or hds? As a commerce student, it was a pretty straight forward process of getting hds or ds...

Usyd on the other hand puts alot more focus on the individual and alot of the finals are like 80% of the grade and there are no group assignments. I did hear that HDs were capped and are pretty much unheard from a law student at Usyd open day.

The marking is generally bell curved according to that lecturer's class. They will skew it in away to try and reflect a bell curve as much as possible. For my Public law class, my lecturer gave me a raw mark of 72, however, it was one of the higher raw marks out of all her students and so she adjusted it to 75. I don't think it's too hard to get Ds for law. For my contracts assignment last year, only about 4/80 students received HDs however, about 20-30 received D and another 20-30 received credits.

2. Exchange opportunities: Usyd has some fantastic US exchange partners such as Cornell, NYU and Emory however i believe last year only one place was offered for each of these universities. UNSW less variety in US partners but has good European partners. Adding to the fact of the extremely high-achieving cohort, what would be considered a competitive wam to get a place an exchange place?

I haven't applied for exchange but I know someone who went on exchange to UCL for a year with a law wam of 65-70. His overall WAM though is about 75-80.

Regarding Electives, the UNSW Law Soc publishes an elective guide every year. It will contain student's opinion of the course and what the course is about. Here is a copy of 2011 Electives. http://unswlawsoc.org/publications/electives_2011.pdf

Here is also a list of electives from the UNSW Law Website for JDs http://www.law.unsw.edu.au/courses/jd/5

 

[lawstu]

USyd: http://sydney.edu.au/law/fstudent/jd/units_of_study.shtml

Grade distributions are up to the course convenor's discretion. The principle remains much the same though.

Pardon the absence of the links. The class sizes for electives usually have an uppermost limit but sometimes another stream may be added, at both schools.

UNSW J.D. with X-Class Honours will become J.D. with Distinction.

Exchange is worth considering as are the pathways to a B.C.L. (Oxon.) but there are requirements that are worth reviewing. Exchanges can be a double-edged sword. It depends hay you want.

 

[Layna]

USyd: http://sydney.edu.au/law/fstudent/jd/units_of_study.shtml

Grade distributions are up to the course convenor's discretion. The principle remains much the same though.

Pardon the absence of the links. The class sizes for electives usually have an uppermost limit but sometimes another stream may be added, at both schools.

UNSW J.D. with X-Class Honours will become J.D. with Distinction.

Exchange is worth considering as are the pathways to a B.C.L. (Oxon.) but there are requirements that are worth reviewing. Exchanges can be a double-edged sword. It depends hay you want.

Are UNSW also reviewing their honour program so that JDs can't get honours anymore ? How did you find this out?

 

[Trans4M]

Are UNSW also reviewing their honour program so that JDs can't get honours anymore ? How did you find this out?

I don't think so. The page says you will be awarded with honours http://www.law.unsw.edu.au/current-students/my-academic-life/honours

This document explains it in a bit more detail http://www.law.unsw.edu.au/sites/la...ursinfosheet_s2_2012_u1_2013_llb_jd_final.pdf

 

[lawstu]

By 2015, the J.D.s will not be eligible for Honours (as in "with Honours"); they will, however, be recognised by the appendage "with distinction", as in Juris Doctor with distinction (or, more likely as it would written in title case, Juris Doctor with Distinction). The source of this is the horse's mouth. I guess this neither being of immediate relevance to the graduating class of 2013 nor having immediate effect in general is something that they feel like making known to the general public.

I suppose it shouldn't matter that much. If you have similar other-than-academic things and similar academic things and all that differs is your award or a qualifier, you'd more than likely be just as competitive as the next person.

I don't think so. The page says you will be awarded with honours http://www.law.unsw.edu.au/current-students/my-academic-life/honours

This document explains it in a bit more detail http://www.law.unsw.edu.au/sites/la...ursinfosheet_s2_2012_u1_2013_llb_jd_final.pdf

The future.


BTW, the Sydney Law School has CP. Most courses don't put that much weighting on it (as much as UNSW if you're wont to make comparisons, which is perfectly good and fine, particularly in these circumstances).

An off-the-bad, incredibly wrong observation is that USYD has quite a few old guys (some are in it for a career; others are in it for a career change) and a sizable bunch of trendy, even 'hipster' guys and gals. Some give off a "you'll come here" vibe. As to be expected too, there are those that are pretty dispassionate about law and/or are dead-set on megabucks (yeah, with short days; get real). Interestingly, there were lots of FEErs at enrolment too. I guess you'd sort of get some of the stereotypes outlined in the UNSW Law Society Lawkipedia 2012 (and more, to be sure, just like UNSW, though).

Good luck with your choice.

Edit: For reference, https://ssa.usyd.edu.au/ssa/handbook/uoslist.jsp?academic_year=XXXX&alpha=LAWS&digit=YYYY will give you some idea of the USYD courses (or units of study), both P11 and electives. Replace XXXX with the year and YYYY with the course code's no.

 

[Layna]

Hi again lawstu. I take it that you really talked up a storm/scouted fellow jd-ers at usyds enrolment day! What is the "you'll come here" vibe btw

Sad as it is, that opportunity to get an honours label attached to my JD is pretty important and motivating to me- 'with distinction' just sounds....trivial. I'll give a call to them soon to ask whether this will be the case in the future. It seems to me that UNSW and Usyd are having this tit-for-tat mentality. Usyd overhauled its program, so now UNSW will as well. If UNSW tries to assimilate Usyd in too many ways and taking away incentives for JD students to opt for the university over USYD, it'll eventually lose out since there's no way it can duplicate 200 years of history and prestige.

It's to see the ad-hoc manner in which these universities can remove the honours program or overhaul it without sufficient notice. If I was a Usyd law student who is graduating in 2014 and learning that there will now be significant difficulty in attaining 'honours', I would wish that i had been told back when i enrolled in 2010.

 

[Layna]

BTW i did the Lawkipedia's quiz to see what kind of law student I am and I can proudly say that i scored a respectable 36 (I think) so I'm a 'quiet achiever' haha. I didnt really get the cartoon on page 31 about the JD/Mrs candidate though.

I had a good read of the cp-holic section. Takes me back to the vaguely stressful days of commerce participation days where some of my tutors would tally up how many times you contributed to tutorial discussion. Tbh, i think i'm a little too old to play that 'game'

 

[lawstu]

Hi again lawstu. I take it that you really talked up a storm/scouted fellow jd-ers at usyds enrolment day! What is the "you'll come here" vibe btw

Oh, I meant "You'll come here?". Hopefully, that doesn't become "You come here?" because I'll stop thinking that because I'll stop thinking that or they'll be totally not who I have thought them to be.

Sad as it is, that opportunity to get an honours label attached to my JD is pretty important and motivating to me- 'with distinction' just sounds....trivial.

Yeah, I feel you. Honours certainly sounds so good, being a nominal distinction from your peers (and Medals, I guess, are better yet!).

I think what probably a pro of UNSW is the fact that, if you want to do the "Big Dog" B.C.L., you'll only be competing among your J.D. peers; unlike at Sydney, where you have to prove yourself against LL.B.ers and J.D.ers.

I'll give a call to them soon to ask whether this will be the case in the future.

Yeah, that might be a good idea. TBH, I was confused by the three UNSW Law Faculty people.

Some of the other people at UNSW were mighty confusing and needed more rehearsing or familiarisation with their material. It has been sort of the same at USYD. Gah.

It seems to me that UNSW and Usyd are having this tit-for-tat mentality. Usyd overhauled its program, so now UNSW will as well. If UNSW tries to assimilate Usyd in too many ways and taking away incentives for JD students to opt for the university over USYD, it'll eventually lose out since there's no way it can duplicate 200 years of history and prestige.

Well, if it means anything, USYD Law has also produced overall disgraces among its alumni and alumnae.

It's to see the ad-hoc manner in which these universities can remove the honours program or overhaul it without sufficient notice. If I was a Usyd law student who is graduating in 2014 and learning that there will now be significant difficulty in attaining 'honours', I would wish that i had been told back when i enrolled in 2010.

It can be utterly frustrating but I guess these things are prerogatives of the faculties and universities. If I were given five cents each and every time universities pulled the rug under me or somehow screwed me with policy, then I'd probably be a dollar richer.

BTW i did the Lawkipedia's quiz to see what kind of law student I am and I can proudly say that i scored a respectable 36 (I think) so I'm a 'quiet achiever' haha. I didnt really get the cartoon on page 31 about the JD/Mrs candidate though.

I'm somewhere between the range of the number of questions (oh dear) and the quiet achiever range, haha. I've taken it three times for repeatability and I can't say that my score has improved (i.e., gotten higher).

I don't really get the JD/Mrs candidate either. I think it's a reference to a woman who enters law school to find a potential spouse from within her cohort. It could also be a woman who is engaged and will be wedded after graduating. Yeah, I don't really get it either.

I had a good read of the cp-holic section. Takes me back to the vaguely stressful days of commerce participation days where some of my tutors would tally up how many times you contributed to tutorial discussion. Tbh, i think i'm a little too old to play that 'game'

I reckon CP would be better if it were like PBL groups. But as my complaining and different thoughts on pedagogy will do no good, I'll just suck it up.

 

[Kingportable]

csp = commonwealth supported place (i.e. Hecs)
ffp = full fee place

all undergraduate degrees besides those of bond are csp. It is speculated that the shift from a postgraduate llb to jd is to cash on the full fee spots offered. Also i believe offers are made through uac.

thank you!! =)

 

[izzy88]

It's to see the ad-hoc manner in which these universities can remove the honours program or overhaul it without sufficient notice. If I was a Usyd law student who is graduating in 2014 and learning that there will now be significant difficulty in attaining 'honours', I would wish that i had been told back when i enrolled in 2010.

The new honours system at USYD has been touted for quite a while. Students starting in 2009 did know there was a new system coming into place. The new honours resolutions have been in law handbooks since at least 2009 and 2010 (basically saying if you graduate prior to 2013 you are in the old system, and if you graduate after you are in the old one).

To be honest, I don't agree with all the changes they have made (moving the first class WAM to 80 is going to be very tough) but the system did need an overhaul. Too many people were graduating with honours and it was devaluing it. It's sad, and I'm very happy i'm under the old system, but objectively I can tell why they changed it. It also brings it more into line with honours systems in other faculties and other universities (ie. requiring a thesis).

The JD at USYD does not have any honours attached to it. My understanding is that is because it is a Masters degree - and traditionally masters do not award honours. Honours is an addition to a bachelor program. I don't think you would be at any disadvantage my not having 'honours' after "JD". Im pretty sure at USYD as well, they offer to give a letter with your graduating rank. However if you want to show how well you did at law, you just show your transcript or give a wam.