Students to be taught there isn't a God in Victorian schools (3 Viewers)

[dont-ban-me-plz]

are you srs iron? you actually want some priest to come into a school? if i remember correctly my high school did the same. we had a priest come in for the Christians and had a Islamic guy for the Muslims......i think our school was worse off. just another way of separating ourselves from each other.
this idea will only work if society only believes in a single religion. if not, its a guaranteed fail.

 

[Graney]

you know what, i bet if the federal government banned all religion in schools, and closed down all religious schools, the majority of people in this country wouldnt give a two- hoots.

Why not just mandate the closing of all churches, burn them down, seize and destroy all religious literature and have the state violently enforce a ban on all religious practice?

 

[Silver Persian]

You know, that is a concept that I have never understood - that life has to have "meaning" (and that meaning is necessarily divined from religion).

Never got it. Never will.

Yes. It has no intrinsic meaning externally defined. But people can give their lives meaning if they want to...

 

[dont-ban-me-plz]

Why not just mandate the closing of all churches, burn them down, seize and destroy all religious literature and have the state violently enforce a ban on all religious practice?

no. that goes against the universal deceleration of human rights. LOLZ

edit: see article 18

 

[Iron]

So you like God because he is "a motivator", "a tool to understand others" and a "comfort? Not so much because you think he actually exists - you think that society would fall apart without some form of higher power to provide meaning etc?

It's a pillar of society, yes. Just like nationalism, but bigger. But that's not to say that I want to peddle a lie because it's needed - I want to peddle a truth because its absense leads to all sorts of aimlessness and misery. If people stop being sensibly instructed and believing that there are things beyond themselves, that there are causes greater, -whether that be God, or the nation, or even a partner you want to spend your life with, then things hit the fan, sure!

 

[sstr]

It's a pillar of society, yes. Just like nationalism, but bigger. But that's not to say that I want to peddle a lie because it's needed - I want to peddle a truth because its absense leads to all sorts of aimlessness and misery. If people stop being sensibly instructed and believing that there are things beyond themselves, that there are causes greater, -whether that be God, or the nation, or even a partner you want to spend your life with, then things hit the fan, sure!

That's a position I can respect much more than your initial post (perhaps you were unclear or I simply misunderstood). I am not opposed to teaching about religions in schools - I actually support it - but at the same time religion should not be taught as fact, because frankly, there isn't any proof supporting them. I still consider our religious heritage to be an important part of our society and culture, and I wish some kind of religion class were available in ACT schools. Ideally it should be mandatory, at least for a year or two. Understanding religion is no less important than studying history.

 

[Iron]

Yes. It has no intrinsic meaning externally defined. But people can give their lives meaning if they want to...

See, it's arrogance like this that I dont understand. How anyone can accept, without a fight, that the God question is settled and that life is absolutely meaningless is beyond me.
Logically, you have to fall back on yourself and your own devices and conduct your life as a massive power grab at the expense of all others. Your success at dominating others, who you believe are all trying to dominate you also, is the only meaning you have. Why accept this miserable state so meekly!?

 

[Silver Persian]

It's a pillar of society, yes. Just like nationalism, but bigger. But that's not to say that I want to peddle a lie because it's needed - I want to peddle a truth because its absense leads to all sorts of aimlessness and misery. If people stop being sensibly instructed and believing that there are things beyond themselves, that there are causes greater, -whether that be God, or the nation, or even a partner you want to spend your life with, then things hit the fan, sure!

See, this is the thing you do that annoys me.

"I want to peddle a truth (not because I think truth is a good in and of itself, but rather) because its absense leads to all sorts of aimlessness and misery"

"God is good because he has good effects. I will justify my belief in God by arguing that the absence of God has negative effects."

You keep slipping between questions of true/false (Does God exist?) to questions of good/bad (Does belief in the existence of God make society better?)

 

[Iron]

That's a position I can respect much more than your initial post (perhaps you were unclear or I simply misunderstood). I am not opposed to teaching about religions in schools - I actually support it - but at the same time religion should not be taught as fact, because frankly, there isn't any proof supporting them. I still consider our religious heritage to be an important part of our society and culture, and I wish some kind of religion class were available in ACT schools. Ideally it should be mandatory, at least for a year or two. Understanding religion is no less important than studying history.

Then we're reading from the same hymn book
Choose life, choose ANU

 

[Graney]

no. that goes against the universal deceleration of human rights. LOLZ

edit: see article 18

So we should just arbitrarily maintain those freedoms that are set out in UN documents, for the reason that they're set out in UN documents?

 

[nikolas]

We're only talking about public schools. But sure, one morning a week or fortnight for a year or so, given to a sensible and balanced introduction to the concept of God, punctured by visits from local priests etc - i.e. some people believe that there is some meaning to life. This is a valid view and has formed the basis of most human endevour. After recess, like every other day, we will learn about part of that endevour

I know we are talking about public schools.

Maybe start preaching to them when they are bit older when they can better make decisions for themselves (but hey it's easier to brainwash the young one huh),

And for Pete's sake, if you must preach make it an afternoon/Sunday activity don't take away school time (on this subject i think you severely underestimate the value of the time taken away from education.)

Then comes to problem of a balanced introduction requiring local catholic/protestant/etc priests, Imams, Rabbis, Pastafarians and what not.

 

[nikolas]

DISAGREE WITH THIS MOVE COMPLETELY. Just because sum Christianist lobby forces scripture/christian units in syllabi doesnt mean da secular humanist education krew has to stoop to their levels.

This man speaks the truth.

 

[Iron]

See, this is the thing you do that annoys me.

"I want to peddle a truth (not because I think truth is a good in and of itself, but rather) because its absense leads to all sorts of aimlessness and misery"

"God is good because he has good effects. I will justify my belief in God by arguing that the absence of God has negative effects."

You keep slipping between questions of true/false (Does God exist?) to questions of good/bad (Does belief in the existence of God make society better?)

That's how I roll? Fast and loose with the troof brau. You, youre more a sniper in the corner, shooting accurately from the shadows infrequently. Someone like Kfunk is a general launching a steady, well-planned invasion from time to time.

 

[Silver Persian]

See, it's arrogance like this that I dont understand. How anyone can accept, without a fight, that the God question is settled and that life is absolutely meaningless is beyond me.
Logically, you have to fall back on yourself and your own devices and conduct your life as a massive power grab at the expense of all others. Your success at dominating others, who you believe are all trying to dominate you also, is the only meaning you have. Why accept this miserable state so meekly!?

Again, as hundreds of posters have identified, the jump made between "you believe God doesn't exist" and a "life that is absolutely meaningless" is silly. The libertarians on the board strongly believe in the pursuit of freedom and the reduction of state coercion; the social democrats on the board believe in equality of opportunity and the provision of a certain standard of living as a right; Nebs believes in the destruction of Israel. Their lives are not meaningless.

If I accept values of particular types of equality, freedom of speech, the promotion of deliberative democracy, rational and open communication etc, how does that "logically" make my political stance any more about domination and power than your God?

 

[Iron]

I know we are talking about public schools.

Maybe start preaching to them when they are bit older when they can better make decisions for themselves (but hey it's easier to brainwash the young one huh),

And for Pete's sake, if you must preach make it an afternoon/Sunday activity don't take away school time (on this subject i think you severely underestimate the value of the time taken away from education.)

Then comes to problem of a balanced introduction requiring local catholic/protestant/etc, Imams, Rabbis, Pastafarians and what not.

Well if it's some fascist atheist parent who is not keen on this particular knowledge reaching their child's ears, then you cant expect the child to oppose that. Youre just planting the seeds of doubt against any preconceived weeds the child has inherited from birth - surely that's what education is all about. There's a very ugly Nazi book-burning, medieval ring to this kind of denial of knowledge.
Who I really feel for are the children who may face ostrasization because their parents happen to be religious, happen to be active in their parish, and happen to send their children to a public school.

 

[dont-ban-me-plz]

So we should just arbitrarily maintain those freedoms that are set out in UN documents, for the reason that they're set out in UN documents?

no not really. why all the fuss about burning and getting rid of religious literature? there is no real reason for it anyway. remove all religious schools, stop funding religious schools AND GET THE CHURCH TO PAY TAXES and that will set an already already growing atheist/secular motion. there is no real need for soviet style violence in Australia.

THe truth is Aussies are simply not into religion - except at Christmas presents time and Easter eggs time. heck, modern day Christmas and Easter has an iota of relevance to Christianity. only through technicality.

modern day Christianity has a huge 'exclusivity' issue. It's the domain of the wealthy or upper middle-classes.

Just take a trip to your local church and its car-park (if its still open) on a Sunday, and you can instantly see the socio-economic groups that attend.

sooner or later Christianity/ religion will simply be non existent in Australia. why is there need for a violent revolution?

 

[be.yourself]

ha i heard about this today. i guess it doesnt really make a difference either way. but not teaching religion doesnt necessarily mean teaching that there is ''No God''.
people can still believe in god but not be affiliated to a religion. like me :wave:

 

[Iron]

Again, as hundreds of posters have identified, the jump made between "you believe God doesn't exist" and a "life that is absolutely meaningless" is silly. The libertarians on the board strongly believe in the pursuit of freedom and the reduction of state coercion; the social democrats on the board believe in equality of opportunity and the provision of a certain standard of living as a right; Nebs believes in the destruction of Israel. Their lives are not meaningless.

If I accept values of particular types of equality, freedom of speech, the promotion of deliberative democracy, rational and open communication etc, how does that "logically" make my political stance any more about domination and power than your God?

Because you expressly deny an ultimate truth? An ultimate reason for your existence? How can political views on freedom even scratch the surface of such questions? You certainly wouldnt believe that you were put on this earth to reduce the size of government. If youre honest, youd admit that the only value of your life without fundamental foundation is the false quest to build up your own power and convince others of its truth - to construct your own reality, rather than pay heed to an objective one

 

[dont-ban-me-plz]

iron, answer nikolas last point on post 74

 

[Kwayera]

Because you expressly deny an ultimate truth? An ultimate reason for your existence?

Why does there need to be one?