Stupid Law Bellcurving (1 Viewer)

[neo o]

This year's university medal in law had an average just below a HD. Is that harsh bell curving gone to excess? I personally think we should be rewarded a little more to remain competitive with Sydney law schools that just hand out distinctions and high distinctions.

 

[jas0nt]

probably ANU trying to keep its prestige. actuary/stat/finance units also tend to scale down.

i think the highest score from a second year finance unit (with 350 students) was 90 or so.

 

[neo o]

Yeah I know. Economics courses in particular have that problem. Subjects like Game Theory have a fail rate of over 50%, and these are bright kids who are flunking out. I just don't know how we can remain competitive in the job market against kids from Sydney universities which have easier marking and higher "perceived" prestige, in most degrees.

 

[jas0nt]

actually, i think ECON2141 scaled up this year. my mate (who has gotten a HD in mirco 1/2 and macro 1/2) did it and thought he crashed and burnt in the final. he ended up getting a 54 which although isn't that great, made him extremely happy because he was expecting a mark which was 20 less. but that's besides the point.

trust me, it shits me to tears knowing kids from Sydney uni's get handed HD's and we have to slave to even touch a D. and the worst thing is employers don't give a shit, i get the vibe they think a D in all universities are the same. add this to a degree such as finance/commerce/actuary, where getting graduate jobs is highly competitive... it really sucks. (i'm not sure how competitive law graduate jobs are).

do you mind i ask how you got those figures (i'm intersted in knowing myself)?

 

[neo o]

I know all 8 Bruce people who did the course failed. Some of these guys have fairly high averages too.

 

[jas0nt]

fair enough. so i take it getting D's and HD's is excruciatingly hard in law subjects? if so i better warn my brother who's starting his first year in a Law degree at ANU.

 

[humphdogg]

fair enough. so i take it getting D's and HD's is excruciatingly hard in law subjects? if so i better warn my brother who's starting his first year in a Law degree at ANU.

Yeah, Law's infamous for doling out very few Ds and HDs.

This year's university medal in law had an average just below a HD. Is that harsh bell curving gone to excess? I personally think we should be rewarded a little more to remain competitive with Sydney law schools that just hand out distinctions and high distinctions.

I suppose it only matters with regards to employers who don't realise the actual worth of an HD in a law subject at ANU. In maths, for example, you need around a 95 average in order to get a university medal, because there's no scaling in maths for the most part. That suggests that a 95 in maths is somehow worth the same as an 80 in law.

 

[Sammy-Blue]

probably ANU trying to keep its prestige. actuary/stat/finance units also tend to scale down.

i think the highest score from a second year finance unit (with 350 students) was 90 or so.

Indeed they do, pricks.

 

[SuperRen]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to put this but how do you find out information such as fail rates and the number of HDs given out in a particular course? Is it just speculation? Does anyone know or care to estimate the number of HDs they give out in Arts and Sciences courses?
I know in Science (and Arts) you have to compete with pHB students for HDs but I was under the impression that quite a few HDs are given out in some Science courses such as bio and psyc.

 

[Hercules6]

hey neo what's your GPA?

 

[Hercules6]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to put this but how do you find out information such as fail rates and the number of HDs given out in a particular course? Is it just speculation? Does anyone know or care to estimate the number of HDs they give out in Arts and Sciences courses?
I know in Science (and Arts) you have to compete with pHB students for HDs but I was under the impression that quite a few HDs are given out in some Science courses such as bio and psyc.

I imagine that it is very difficult to establish fail rates. However here are a couple of ways i can imagine it being possible:

- sometimes course conveners may state the fail rate for a particular course in the introductory lecture (especially when it is notoriously high)
- If all assessment grades are released on blackboard (or whatever you guys call course websites), someone who has too much time, and is probably too proud, could easily equate the fail/pass rate with simple stat software - more likely excel.
-I'm sure there are other ways, furthermore there are probably unusual or rare occurrences when it is made public (for e.g. I knew of someone who failed a law course then emailed the course convener in a state. Hoping to console, the convener told the person they were in the 60% who failed that course).


-so yeah, you could probably do statistical analysis to work out probabilities (re - z-scores, normal distribution - to get probability) - but over all, I'd say you're pretty correct when you assume it's speculation.

- finally regarded any established rate -they're not set in stone, I'm sure there is reasonably variance year to year (re changing lecturers , tutors, assessment items etc.)

P.S - if you're doing arts or whatever, who cares what the fail/pass rate is in a course. no one cares what your GPA is, unless you want to be an academic or are really crazy about doing honours. I can't see why you'd care - as far as I can tell it's only really in law that your GPA has the ability to ultimately limit your career options.

well i don't know why i've written this..... but.... the end.

 

[Sammy-Blue]

hey neo what's your GPA?

His sig claims Hons in Law. I'd hazard a guess at "better than yours".

 

[Hercules6]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to put this but how do you find out information such as fail rates and the number of HDs given out in a particular course? Is it just speculation? Does anyone know or care to estimate the number of HDs they give out in Arts and Sciences courses?
I know in Science (and Arts) you have to compete with pHB students for HDs but I was under the impression that quite a few HDs are given out in some Science courses such as bio and psyc.

oh and in regard to the second part of your question - yeah HD's are given out, they're just as rare as rocking horse shit in law.

to give you an example I'm doing law/psych and so far I've gotten a HD for every psych subject i've taken but for law I'd say i've got a HD rate of about 35-40%.

law is just really hard, or perhaps more just a lot of work (atleast i think so) - I imagine that's why it's got such a high drop out rate - that is to say - it can be quite disheartening if you're putting in extreme amounts of work and not getting the grades you think you deserve - especially when you put more work in than say subjects of another discipline yet get worse grades. - re my example above

If you're getting Ds in law it's pretty decent.

Just relax...

 

[Will Shakespear]

bellcurving @ uni is so stupid

there should be some objective marking criteria so that potentially everyone could get 100

imagine walking up to the tutor and saying "what can i do to improve my marks?"
and he answers "beat him, him, him and him" pointing to ppl in the class -_-

 

[jas0nt]

hmm... what's with all the uni medals for science subjects but hardly any for business type subjects?

ANU News Second chance for two medallists

 

[jas0nt]

I can't see why you'd care - as far as I can tell it's only really in law that your GPA has the ability to ultimately limit your career options.

investment banking - where anything below a D (a HD realistically) shatters any chances of an interview.

 

[humphdogg]

hmm... what's with all the uni medals for science subjects but hardly any for business type subjects?

ANU News � Second chance for two medallists

Holy fuck, 5 people doing PhB physics got university medals!

Hmmm, I actually know three or four people on that list...

 

[Sammy-Blue]

investment banking - where anything below a D (a HD realistically) shatters any chances of an interview.

If you're doing a degree that would help you get into the field, you should have enough other options to make do, hardly limiting. Still, I wouldn't mind getting into it if the opportunity came by.

 

[neo o]

For those who wanted numbers:

ANU

In 1996, in order primarily to ensure reasonable uniformity and fair comparisons across subjects and across years, the College adopted a policy on grade distribution. This policy currently stipulates that the distribution of grades in any given subject normally should conform to the following guidelines:

High Distinction (80% and above) 2 – 5% of students
Distinction (70 – 79%) 10 – 20% of students
Credit (60 – 69%) 30 – 50% of students
Pass (50 – 59%) No quota for pass or fail

USYD (raw average stats, not a faculty specified curve per se, electives are more generous, core courses less so)

2006 and 2007 Totals
HD 8.33%
D 34.31%
(D+HD) 42.64%
CR 37.79%
P 16.99%
F 2.58%

I couldn't find either UTS' or UNSW's. Anecdotally, most core subjects grade to the lower end of the range, while electives are more generous.

 

[neo o]

Holy fuck, 5 people doing PhB physics got university medals!

Hmmm, I actually know three or four people on that list...

There were five ex Brucies on the list this year