TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE: Unites States & China....? (1 Viewer)

[berry580]

Traditionally democratic governments have been less corupt then the socialists. I have a feeling that eventually the current Chinese government will turn democratic within our lifetimes, purely as they are becoming less and less socialist. Or they could keep their own party system, but due to the internet etc they don't have the same control as they use to have, the limited site access is routinely bypassed.

The Dutch settled on Taiwan first Killing a fair few native Taiwanese first. Before the Chinese took over.

I wasn't saying that the USA would support Taiwan, more that they have no stance on the issue. And do not advocate the military take over of Taiwan although they will most likely do nothing to stop it.

For god's sake please use your brain before you reply again. Some people in this site are just wacked!

Quote:
Archaeologists have found evidence of prehistoric human habitation in Taiwan that dates back 12,000 to 15,000 years, indicating that Taiwan's earliest inhabitants came from at least two places: southern China and Austronesia. In general, early settlers from southern China settled in northern and central Taiwan, while Australoid settlements were mainly in southern Taiwan and along the eastern coast. These early settlers, which now compose Taiwan's indigenous peoples, make up less than 2 percent of Taiwan's population.

In the 16th century, Han people from China's coastal provinces of Fujian and Guangdong began immigrating to Taiwan in large numbers to build a new homeland away from war and famine. This group of early Han immigrants consisted mainly of Southern Fujianese and Hakka. Today, these two groups constitute about 85 percent of the population, with the Fujianese outnumbering the Hakka by a ratio of approximately three to one. When the Kuomintang (KMT) government relocated to Taipei in 1949, it brought a new influx of Han immigrants to Taiwan. The Han form the largest ethnic group in Taiwan, making up roughly 98 percent of the population; 15 percent of this group came to Taiwan after 1945. Taiwan's population also consists of almost 60 other non-Han minorities.


Link: http://www.gio.gov.tw/taiwan-website/5-gp/yearbook/chpt02.htm#2


Unifications wasn't much of a problem between mainland China and Taiwan before late 1980's because the dispute wasn't about whether Taiwan is part of China or not, it was mainly about who is the 'true government' of China (suggesting they do recognise themselves as Chinese since they want to be the 'true government' of China). The current ruling party of Taiwan, Min Jin Dang, along with Taiwan Christian Elders Society, introduced the idea that Taiwan should be independent nations, and not be part of China. Recently many people in Taiwan's call for replacing the name Republic of China with Republic of Taiwan (say thank you to the education system). I think that is where Beijing will draw the red line on retaking the island.

 

[Xayma]

Hmm netiher of the sources I looked at had that, or any statement contradicting it so I will except it.

In any case the past immigration of people is not necessairly relevant to whether they should have future independance.

I think Taiwan will continue to function as it has done. If China was to declare war I don't see it making any real gain in doing such, Taiwan isn't exactly a mineral rich habitat, and any war will see much of its infrastructure destroyed, the government I don't see surrending at any cost.

So I don't see any reason other then pride to take over Taiwan, which really shouldn't be used. Considering that the majority support the current state of Taiwan (in Taiwan) there is really no need to take over, if the majority of Taiwanese wanted to reunite under the PROC then possibly there would be a reason for war, if the Taiwan government didn't allow them to emigrate.

 

[berry580]

Hmm netiher of the sources I looked at had that, or any statement contradicting it so I will except it.

In any case the past immigration of people is not necessairly relevant to whether they should have future independance.

It doesn't matter what you think is relevant.
The fact is Chinese had lived on Taiwan centuries before any westerners even landed on it. The fact is Chinese people have claimed that island centures ago. So finally, the fact is Taiwan is part of China.

I think Taiwan will continue to function as it has done. If China was to declare war I don't see it making any real gain in doing such, Taiwan isn't exactly a mineral rich habitat, and any war will see much of its infrastructure destroyed, the government I don't see surrending at any cost.

So I don't see any reason other then pride to take over Taiwan, which really shouldn't be used. Considering that the majority support the current state of Taiwan (in Taiwan) there is really no need to take over, if the majority of Taiwanese wanted to reunite under the PROC then possibly there would be a reason for war, if the Taiwan government didn't allow them to emigrate.

Taiwan is part of China, hence they WILL reunify sooner or later.
All other bullsh-ts of your are quite irrelevant, really.

Also, do you realise everytime I shoot down your bullsh-ts,you then just going on to something else?
Please, I don't particularly like to waste time.

Make a point, and stay with that point. If you can't even defend your own point, then get lost. Corz I don't like to play 'hide & seek'.

 

[Generator]

berry, in many cases there may well be more than one point of view that rings true, and it would be better for you if you accepted that idea now rather than later.

This link may interest you, too, because it seems as though your quote ignores an important part of the island's history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Taiwan

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Berry, i too believe that eventually they will reuinify... it's like the berlin wall east germany and west germany... the minority will eventually yeild to the majority.
However currently people in taiwan fear for their highly skilled, high paying (relitively) jobs...
This is the reason the taiwanese economy is so great, the PROC would destroy their economy.

 

[berry580]

Berry, i too believe that eventually they will reuinify... it's like the berlin wall east germany and west germany... the minority will eventually yeild to the majority.
However currently people in taiwan fear for their highly skilled, high paying (relitively) jobs...
This is the reason the taiwanese economy is so great, the PROC would destroy their economy.

Highly skilled?
Ok, it's probably just me. Nothing..... *rollingeyes*

As far as I'm concerned, the only reason in why the Taiwan economy is so 'great' was because they sustained high level of FDI's back when the US recognised Taiwan to be the 'real China' while mainland China back then still have embargoes applied on to them.

And the position has now been switched (although there's no embargo on Taiwan), and now look who's greater?

berry, in many cases there may well be more than one point of view that rings true, and it would be better for you if you accepted that idea now rather than later.

This link may interest you, too, because it seems as though your quote ignores an important part of the island's history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Taiwan

The truth is Taiwan has widely been recognised to be part of China, what more do you want? Taiwan belongs to the Dutchs?

Actually it works out. Even Pearl Harbour, Hawaii can belong to the Americans. Why can't Taiwan belong to the Dutchs?
And I certainly can't see why American can't be China's by that sense.

Either way, your link is quite interesting. I hadn't realised the Dutch was the first to officially to claim the island although I know they did invade Taiwan. But I'm quite convinced that, chances are, the Chinese is one of the first race to settle in Taiwan, considering how far apart is Taiwan and mainland China.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

No i think you'll find that taiwan being a member of APEC and possibly soon the WTO has increased their trading capabilities making them one of the most dynamic economies of asia.

 

[Phanatical]

Has anybody noticed that the separatist scum use "PROC" while the rest of us use "PRC"?

 

[berry580]

No i think you'll find that taiwan being a member of APEC and possibly soon the WTO has increased their trading capabilities making them one of the most dynamic economies of asia.

Like I said, there's really no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong' in international relations.

It's politically correct that Taiwan is part of China, yet 'Taiwan' can be on it's own within a trading bloc (APEC) due to its significance in terms of international trading. So there's one paradox which reinforces my point of view.

As for the WTO, I have my doubts in them being able to join it, but lets see.

Btw, 'no' what?
What are you responding to? Please be specific.
But either way, 'no' my cock.

 

[Xayma]

Has anybody noticed that the separatist scum use "PROC" while the rest of us use "PRC"?

Why am I seperatist scum? How do you justify calling me scum?

I am not familiar with the abbreviations of PRC and PROC and just used PROC because it is the one that first came to mind, in any case it didn't affect my argument as it was easily understood.

 

[Phanatical]

Anybody who would want to break up our Motherland is scum, and cast a bad name upon the Chinese people (of which those who hail from Taiwan province are included).

 

[Xayma]

Well you're lucky Im not of Chinese origin then, and I won't cast a bad name upon the people from the Chinese mainland.

And as it is inevitable you will use that I am anglo against me in this argument, I would like to point out that unless you are a citizen of either Taiwan or China, my view is of as much importance as yours.

 

[Phanatical]

I beg to differ. I may be a citizen of Australia, but I am still Chinese. Your opinion, on the other hand, means shitall, and as an anglo, you should mind your own damn business.

There's a big difference between the Chinese and any Anglos I've ever met - no matter where we are in the world, Chinese people as a whole still give our loyalty and allegience to the Motherland. If America and China went to war, and Australia sided with the wankee yankees, I would raise arms against the Australian government, and do what I can to ensure that Australia does not threaten the safety and sovereignty of the People's Republic of China.

 

[Xayma]

I beg to differ. I may be a citizen of Australia, but I am still Chinese. Your opinion, on the other hand, means shitall, and as an anglo, you should mind your own damn business.

There's a big difference between the Chinese and any Anglos I've ever met - no matter where we are in the world, Chinese people as a whole still give our loyalty and allegience to the Motherland. If America and China went to war, and Australia sided with the wankee yankees, I would raise arms against the Australian government, and do what I can to ensure that Australia does not threaten the safety and sovereignty of the People's Republic of China.

If you do not owe your allegiance to Australia, why remain?

As a citizen of Australia who voluntairly remains as one, you should owe your allegiance to this country, and not fight for the opposing country. You never mentioned the circumstances against which you would fight. If China was to declare war on Australia, would you fight against the government of Australia?

You said you would raise arms against the government, I take that as you saying you would use violence, in which case you should at least have the honour (and if you wish to be treated not as spy, but as a Prisoner of War) to leave the country before fighting against the government, renouncing your citizenship at the earliest possible opportunity.

 

[Shen86d]

phanatical is spot on.. even tho i love australia and am proud to be a part of it, if the government were to go to war against china siding with the americans, i would definitely voice my opinions against the decision.. im sure this is how some iraqi's thought when australia followed america into the war on so called 'terror'.. dont even get me started on that.. stupid hypocrites.. the only difference between america and husseins 'reign of terror' is that america sugar coats things and covers them up and has alot more power.. other than that theyre identical ..

..OH yeh.. thats rite.. iraq also has an abundance of oil

 

[Shen86d]

and xayma, we would have no reason to interfere with internal relations between china and taiwan.. like if tasmania wanted independance, im not so sure anyone would come and attack the mainland in support of tasmania.. we dont even have a valid reason to defy china.. its only because america is.. and for what reason we rnt even clear yet.. i mean can u tell me the truth on y america attacked iraq? with war casualties still rising?

 

[Xayma]

I highly doubt any country would get involved if Taiwan and China went to war. It wouldn't be economically sound to, considering they wouldn't lose much trading with Taiwan, as they would become part of China.

But the way I intepreted phanaticals post was that he would resort to any means if for any reason China and Australia ended up at war (not necessairly over Taiwan). Which would mean violence against the country you are a citizen of.

People who would resort to that, when they can voluntairly leave, have no honour.

 

[Shen86d]

hey, i have honour and uphold my citizen status as australian and am proud to be a part of it.. but if for some weird reason australia wages war on china for an unjust reason.. like.. because americans hate chinese or something(im not a communist or racist or anthing im just making an obvious example) then i wuld definitely be against the movement..

 

[Generator]

Just for the record, the Australian government would never just follow the US for the sake of following (and your example, Shen86d, was poor, not obvious).

 

[Xayma]

There is a difference between being against the movement, and using violence against the government.

The way I read Phanaticals post was if for any reason there was a war between China and the USA (even if China declared as I read it), and Australia allied with China, he would if necessary use any means to help the Chinese whether physical violence against officials or acting as a spy.