Kwayera
Passive-aggressive Mod
A-fuckin'-men to that.
-
Finished your HSC? Check out our University Discussion, Non-School forums or help out next year's HSC students! -
YOU can help the next generation of students in the community! Share your trial papers and notes on our Notes & Resources page
Teacher Pay Increases (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter hyperbole
- Start date
Beaky
You can read minds?
Hence thats why the government only wants to award pay rises to "good teachers"
Ziff
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2003
- Messages
- 2,366
- Gender
- Undisclosed
- HSC
- N/A
And yet you still have the problem of how to rate a "good teacher".
I seriously think there needs to be a system where teachers are more accountable and can be audited. All their teaching materials, their class marks, their methods etc audited and checked by other teachers and say "senior markers" much in the style of the HSC.
Of course other factors will always need to be taken into account such as the socio-economic circumstances of the area and so on, because I know that even the best teacher would be totally ineffective in areas such as Minto
For such cases I've always thought a system of "hazard pay" might be applicable.
I seriously think there needs to be a system where teachers are more accountable and can be audited. All their teaching materials, their class marks, their methods etc audited and checked by other teachers and say "senior markers" much in the style of the HSC.
Of course other factors will always need to be taken into account such as the socio-economic circumstances of the area and so on, because I know that even the best teacher would be totally ineffective in areas such as Minto
For such cases I've always thought a system of "hazard pay" might be applicable.
Mate your ranting about how ripped off you are by your english department covered one aspect of teaching used by a few teachers...
My english teachers ripped me off severly at school... over and over... but yeah I also have alot of great teachers who do a lot more than photocopy and use the syllabus
You failed to mention the after-school hours they put in
Plus the stress of the situations they deal with
Plus the emotional situations of both teachers and many stuidents they have to deal with
To minimalise the work of teachers to what you've said Ziff mate is a huge sweeping generalisation from a pissed off person...
Yeah I have crap teachers as well, and yeah some do what you've said... But there are so many who don't who deserve so much more than they're getting...
My english teachers ripped me off severly at school... over and over... but yeah I also have alot of great teachers who do a lot more than photocopy and use the syllabus
You failed to mention the after-school hours they put in
Plus the stress of the situations they deal with
Plus the emotional situations of both teachers and many stuidents they have to deal with
To minimalise the work of teachers to what you've said Ziff mate is a huge sweeping generalisation from a pissed off person...
Yeah I have crap teachers as well, and yeah some do what you've said... But there are so many who don't who deserve so much more than they're getting...
Enlightened_One
King of Bullshit
Thanks.
That's just why we need a pay rise. Right now noone wants the job so the UAIs so low that any idiot can get the job. If we raise the pay then we'll get more applicants and onlt the best would get through.
Teachers ought to be the best of the state, not the worst
Ribbon
Member
- Joined
- Sep 15, 2003
- Messages
- 455
Ok once again I cbf to quote everything so you can just figure out who said what and what I am talking about
'Paying teachers more will get more teachers into the proffession and hence lower class sizes'
I could be wrong but isn't the whole reason the gov't doesn't want to pay the teachers more is because it doesn't fit in with the budget (and yes I know the budget is shit and there should be more $$ allocated to education but the fact of the matter is that there isn't). Wouldn't this mean that the more teachers get paid, the less teachers the gov't could afford to employ? So in the end there would be an oversupply of teachers (because increased demand = more into the proffession) but no jobs for them? which then = bigger class sizes and the pay for teachers would just go down again (supply and demand principles)?
'you should get paid more to look after 22 7year olds'
People in day care look after lots of kids and they still get paid shit, yet they don't whinge like bitches all the time and striek forcing the childrens parents to miss work ect. to look after them.
'My parents are teachers and both earn 50k and we are in debt, and not that well off'
O M F G! I seriously cannot believe this! I am not trying to be offensive but with a combined household income of around 70k ($1350 a week!) after tax your parents must have squillions of kids or just be really really shit at managing thier finances (like how much must the repayments on your house be if your struggling!) to be really far in debt and not well off! I grew up in a single parent family with an unstable income of 8 -20k 2 kids in total and although we didn't have much I never felt like we were 'struggling' and debt wasn't so overwhelming considering the low income. My partner and I are now living on about 40k ($800 per week) after tax (combined) with a small car loan and paying $235 week in rent and life is soooo cruuzy.
Maybe its because I grew up in a 'low socio ecomnomic' area that it seems like teachers get paid so much to me... I also used to think they deserved it but I agree with asqy... as I have gotten into uni and started looking around at how hard you have to work to earn so many $$ I think the amount of work they do is not much at all...
and as for the teachers bitching about 'only' getting a 12% payrise... Just shows how greedy they are.
Just out of interest I looked up a chart for administrative public servants, and starting at the bottom aps level 3 (26 - 28k) it takes a total of 18years to reach the top level before management, aps level 6 (52 - 58k) before you have to become an 'executive' to get a payrise. Seems to me the top pay and time to get there is comparable to teachers, except the starting pay is only just over half of what teachers start at. Oh and then theres the fact teachers get over twice as many holidays... Salaries are comparable for hostel nurses (25k start 59k finish) however it takes them 21 years to reach the top...
'Paying teachers more will get more teachers into the proffession and hence lower class sizes'
I could be wrong but isn't the whole reason the gov't doesn't want to pay the teachers more is because it doesn't fit in with the budget (and yes I know the budget is shit and there should be more $$ allocated to education but the fact of the matter is that there isn't). Wouldn't this mean that the more teachers get paid, the less teachers the gov't could afford to employ? So in the end there would be an oversupply of teachers (because increased demand = more into the proffession) but no jobs for them? which then = bigger class sizes and the pay for teachers would just go down again (supply and demand principles)?
'you should get paid more to look after 22 7year olds'
People in day care look after lots of kids and they still get paid shit, yet they don't whinge like bitches all the time and striek forcing the childrens parents to miss work ect. to look after them.
'My parents are teachers and both earn 50k and we are in debt, and not that well off'
O M F G! I seriously cannot believe this! I am not trying to be offensive but with a combined household income of around 70k ($1350 a week!) after tax your parents must have squillions of kids or just be really really shit at managing thier finances (like how much must the repayments on your house be if your struggling!) to be really far in debt and not well off! I grew up in a single parent family with an unstable income of 8 -20k 2 kids in total and although we didn't have much I never felt like we were 'struggling' and debt wasn't so overwhelming considering the low income. My partner and I are now living on about 40k ($800 per week) after tax (combined) with a small car loan and paying $235 week in rent and life is soooo cruuzy.
Maybe its because I grew up in a 'low socio ecomnomic' area that it seems like teachers get paid so much to me... I also used to think they deserved it but I agree with asqy... as I have gotten into uni and started looking around at how hard you have to work to earn so many $$ I think the amount of work they do is not much at all...
and as for the teachers bitching about 'only' getting a 12% payrise... Just shows how greedy they are.
Just out of interest I looked up a chart for administrative public servants, and starting at the bottom aps level 3 (26 - 28k) it takes a total of 18years to reach the top level before management, aps level 6 (52 - 58k) before you have to become an 'executive' to get a payrise. Seems to me the top pay and time to get there is comparable to teachers, except the starting pay is only just over half of what teachers start at. Oh and then theres the fact teachers get over twice as many holidays... Salaries are comparable for hostel nurses (25k start 59k finish) however it takes them 21 years to reach the top...
lmao
1. it could be hard for the person's father to get a job in a different area, and what's the point of going through 3 years of uni
2. lol
3. why shouldn't it be paid in line with other professions ( i assume by in line u mean the money they deserve, not the exact same money as prrofessions with more study and more work needed). and i suppose that is the whole point of this thread
a general though to think about
Ribbon, I did not say that you should be paid more for 'looking after' 22 7 year olds (to see you phrase it in that way... a clear example of my point regarding recognition for a vital profession). Besides, day care supervisors are not teachers, and day care facilities are not schools.
Oh, and it is kind of obvious that calls for higher levels of pay would coincide with those for greater levels of funding.
It is clear that those who know nothing of what is required of a teacher really do not see eye to eye with those who do.
We are only repeating what has already been said. I am sure that Asquithian is not the only person with work to do, too (stuvac, anyone?).
Oh, and it is kind of obvious that calls for higher levels of pay would coincide with those for greater levels of funding.
It is clear that those who know nothing of what is required of a teacher really do not see eye to eye with those who do.
We are only repeating what has already been said. I am sure that Asquithian is not the only person with work to do, too (stuvac, anyone?).
1. Which has been argued before as well... these other professions that work equally after-hours also in most cases get a lot more money than teachers... And your example of how hard marking year 10 trig papers is irrelevant... you've never marked papers, you're not a teacher... you don't know how much they have to mark
2. It would be unfair for the good teachers not to receive a payrise. Good teachers are good teachers no matter how much you pay them, but good teachers will only continue to be good teachers if they are able to justify their workload with a deserved pay rate, and if they are able to get by on the money they are making.
Maybe that's why they get paid shit... sure I agree, give them more money if they deserve it which they probably do.. and the way to make someone notice........... strike....Originally posted by Ribbon
Ok once again I cbf to quote everything so you can just figure out who said what and what I am talking about
'Paying teachers more will get more teachers into the proffession and hence lower class sizes'
I could be wrong but isn't the whole reason the gov't doesn't want to pay the teachers more is because it doesn't fit in with the budget (and yes I know the budget is shit and there should be more $$ allocated to education but the fact of the matter is that there isn't). Wouldn't this mean that the more teachers get paid, the less teachers the gov't could afford to employ? So in the end there would be an oversupply of teachers (because increased demand = more into the proffession) but no jobs for them? which then = bigger class sizes and the pay for teachers would just go down again (supply and demand principles)?
'you should get paid more to look after 22 7year olds'
People in day care look after lots of kids and they still get paid shit, yet they don't whinge like bitches all the time and striek forcing the childrens parents to miss work ect. to look after them.
So because other people are doing it just as tough and sometimes tougher (yeah we have a huge family) that means that teachers are unentitled to ask for a payrise? Do we all have to do it as tough as you to have a payrise? The point is that yeah we have a lot of debt and we're not well off.... My parents do a lot of work and deserve more money, they deserve to be better off for the amount of work they do.
This coming from all your experience as a teacher is it? Because you've gone to school as a student you suddenly think you know how much work they do? What they have to put in?
Just shows how much they think they're undervalued... which they are
Again, this argument is pointless... True other professions DO deserve a payrise as well... and good on them if they want one they should do the hardyards to get one as well... The argument is that teachers ALSO deserve a payrise, and they are doing what it takes to get one.... The teacher's pay rate stops on a VERY similar mark to the ones you just mentioned.
KeypadSDM
B4nn3d
Some people keep forgetting that you don't get paid in proportion to your importance in society.
KeypadSDM
B4nn3d
Man, being a maths teacher would be sweet. It's dead simple to mark stuff and all the course is logical, your students can only do stuff in a logical fashion, none of the bullcrap marking like English papers and whatnot.
I heard somewhere that at some stage in the dim past backbenchers got the same pay as teachers. (In Australia).
The problem with teaching is that if you don't want to go into admin your 20 yrs experience or such is not recognised.
It sickens me comparing some teachers at school that they get the same pay.
The problem with teaching is that if you don't want to go into admin your 20 yrs experience or such is not recognised.
It sickens me comparing some teachers at school that they get the same pay.
I'm trying to tell you that there's a hell of a lot more than just trig papers to mark...the point is that that argument you use is so generalised... and I don't know where you get it from... having grown up in a family of teachers I can tell you there's a hell of a lot more than that.
No... Neither... I just SEE how much effort they put into it and how dedicated they are to their students.
now tha'ts funny you say that... shows how bad your generalising is... because the other day my mum WAS having to prepare a presentation for the board - a huge conference that people were paying like $200 to go to... a lot of effort for her proffession that she didn't have to put in... and she didn't get paid....
[/b][/quote]
So you're saying that it's only those people who accept the injustice that can be classified as good teachers... Sure teachers aren't in it for the money...but these days you need a lot of money to survive and a lot of teachers are going under with the low level of pay again... see previous posts of mine for that story about the real estate guy I keep telling...
Don't you think the good teacher's who love their job are fighting because they want to keep doing their job and not be undervalued and not experience the injustice of unfair pay?
All your argument is that YOU think teachers don't do a lot of work... Not having any background in teaching I think your argument is irrelevant
yeah imagine english teachers, i saw the amount of work they put in, each reading 60 essays, then another 60 (double marked), then we did 3 essays and q 1 in a trial / half yearly, we had an assessment for each topic, they must have read 1500-2000 essays just for us.
*~Dazed~*
fuck a duck
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
- Messages
- 1,177
- Gender
- Female
- HSC
- 2003
yeah but you are kind of proving his point here... this person parents are teachers hence he sees all the after hours work they do thus he can judge and sit her saying they work their arse off and get stressed and shit. someone who doesnt have teachers as parents wouldnt understand the extent to which they work.
k anyone on this forum, i want to know what jobs people do and what they do after hours.
don't take this offensively, these are just people i know:
-i know lawyers, they do a lot of after hours stuff and i mean too much. just finishing off work they should have done during the day but didn't get time to because of all the clients
-i know secrataries, they do nothing to do with their work at home
-doctors - nothing to do with work at home, although they are underpaid as well in some cases for what they do
plumbers/electricians etc - paperwork to do at home, although they don't have set home times, they will be asked to go to a job at any time of the day
these are just generalisations, if anyone can put more specific things they do then go ahead.
K
katie_tully
Guest
Holy hell.
This made me laugh, it's a list of why the teachers wan't a pay rise.
The professional commitment of teachers has been stretched to breaking point by, for example:
the intensification of teachers' work
deteriorating physical conditions of work
staggering parent and community expectations
increased student welfare needs and behavioural problems
significantly increased numbers of special needs children
rapid curriculum and technological change with little support
increased assessment and reporting demands
negative changes to the student/teacher relationship because of child protection issues.
Hi, my names Johnny and I got a UAI of 69, I can be a teacher. I did standard english, standard maths and CAFS. I just went to uni for 4 years, I'm now earing a mere $46,000 a year FOR MY FIRST YEAR! After 10 years I'll be on $66,000+. I think my wage sucks, I mean I have to mark exams during my weekend, and holidays. I only get more sick leave days than any other job, I get 12 weeks paid holidays, I only have to work from 9-3 (roughly)...BUT THAT LITTLE PRICK UP THE BACK STRESSES ME OUT, I NEED ANOTHER 20%!!!
Hi, my names Jane and I've just spend the last 3 years at university doing a nursing degree. I work in the busiest emergency ward in NSW (Canberra Emergency). I do shiftwork, and my hours vary from 8-12. Sometimes I only get half an hour for a break. I get 4 weeks holidays a year, a fortnight of paid sick leave a year. The health system is stretched to it's limits, I spend my days saving lives and dealing with arse holes on a regular basis. I get $36,728 as a first year. After 8 years I get a total $54,152 p.a.
Seriously people, who do you think is a more valuable member of society? Maybe they're both on par, if so who do you think deserves a better rate of pay in accordance with hours and their conditions? I don't think the teachers have a leg to stand on.
This made me laugh, it's a list of why the teachers wan't a pay rise.
The professional commitment of teachers has been stretched to breaking point by, for example:
the intensification of teachers' work
deteriorating physical conditions of work
staggering parent and community expectations
increased student welfare needs and behavioural problems
significantly increased numbers of special needs children
rapid curriculum and technological change with little support
increased assessment and reporting demands
negative changes to the student/teacher relationship because of child protection issues.
Hi, my names Johnny and I got a UAI of 69, I can be a teacher. I did standard english, standard maths and CAFS. I just went to uni for 4 years, I'm now earing a mere $46,000 a year FOR MY FIRST YEAR! After 10 years I'll be on $66,000+. I think my wage sucks, I mean I have to mark exams during my weekend, and holidays. I only get more sick leave days than any other job, I get 12 weeks paid holidays, I only have to work from 9-3 (roughly)...BUT THAT LITTLE PRICK UP THE BACK STRESSES ME OUT, I NEED ANOTHER 20%!!!
Hi, my names Jane and I've just spend the last 3 years at university doing a nursing degree. I work in the busiest emergency ward in NSW (Canberra Emergency). I do shiftwork, and my hours vary from 8-12. Sometimes I only get half an hour for a break. I get 4 weeks holidays a year, a fortnight of paid sick leave a year. The health system is stretched to it's limits, I spend my days saving lives and dealing with arse holes on a regular basis. I get $36,728 as a first year. After 8 years I get a total $54,152 p.a.
Seriously people, who do you think is a more valuable member of society? Maybe they're both on par, if so who do you think deserves a better rate of pay in accordance with hours and their conditions? I don't think the teachers have a leg to stand on.
blue_chameleon
Shake the sauce bottle yo
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2003
- Messages
- 3,078
- Gender
- Male
- HSC
- 2003
Here Here Katie, I made this point in another thread a while ago, but I would say you have done a better job at it.
Its exactly right, yes people may argue all they like about whether teachers deserve a pay rise or not, but their is no denying where they stand in society when compared to the likes of nurses, or ambulance officers especially with the hours and conditions of nurses. The public health system is in a much worse state than the education system. I would love for somebody to tell me differently, please, try.
Its exactly right, yes people may argue all they like about whether teachers deserve a pay rise or not, but their is no denying where they stand in society when compared to the likes of nurses, or ambulance officers especially with the hours and conditions of nurses. The public health system is in a much worse state than the education system. I would love for somebody to tell me differently, please, try.
K
katie_tully
Guest
Sorry for rehashing you, i sort of skip the middle sections when there's alot...