the 2 aussies getting execuated in Indonesia (2 Viewers)

[BlueLucario]

Unpopular opinion, but
I don't believe, any country should have the death penalty, however it doesn't give us the right to intervene in another nations legal system. Also with drug smuggling, they just wanted to make a ton of money, and yes drugs does ruin a lot of lives.

Also if there is anything we should be worked up about relating to Indonesia, it should about what they are doing in West Paupua.

 

[Kiraken]

Sure, death penalty is harsh, but imo they've known the consequences of their actions, and they decided to play a gamble. So thus they deserve such actions.

Also it's important for Australia not to intervene in the laws/legislation of other countries. Each country deserves their state sovereignty.

Hate on me if you wish, but if you go to another country, you must be well aware of, and obey the laws of that country.

except the death penalty is stupid, particularly after you rehabilitate individuals for 10 years lol

of course people have every right to express outrage at that, you don't have to respect a ridiculous sentence if it makes no sense

 

[Katebrunner]

Unpopular opinion, but
I don't believe, any country should have the death penalty, however it doesn't give us the right to intervene in another nations legal system. Also with drug smuggling, they just wanted to make a ton of money, and yes drugs does ruin a lot of lives.

Also if there is anything we should be worked up about relating to Indonesia, it should about what they are doing in West Paupua.

Doesn't give us the right to interfere in another nations legal system? Did we have the right to interfere with Hitler's system? We cant just turn a blind eye in the name if respecting their sovereignty. They are wrong.

 

[Kiraken]

having said that, i don't really like how the media is portraying the two men either, they are not "boys who made a silly mistake" nor is what they did in any way just a minor indiscretion, we shouldn't be making martyrs out of them because they didn't really die for any cause.

 

[Swaan]

Completely and utterly against the execution. They are not the same people they were 10 years ago and even if they were, I still think the death penalty is far too steep a punishment

 

[BlueLucario]

Doesn't give us the right to interfere in another nations legal system? Did we have the right to interfere with Hitler's system? We cant just turn a blind eye in the name if respecting their sovereignty. They are wrong.

Yet we can turn a blind eye to the numerous nations around the world that still have capital punishment. Even though many states in the USA have the death penalty for drug trafficking, it's not wrong for them? So it's fine for Indonesia to kill numerous civllians, but when it comes to drug smuggling it's wrong. My heart goes out to their families, but they should have known the consequences to their actions.

 

[D94]

So called innocent people who get addicted to those drugs, made a conscious decision to take those drugs. It doesn't matter if they had access to the drugs because of smugglers - I can easily get a gun license and a gun, but it wouldn't be the fault of the dealer if I went on a killing spree. Drugs sitting idle on a table isn't going to ruin my life.

Drug smuggling is a non-violent crime. It should not be on the same level or even above the level of murder. Three convicted murderers in Indonesia were given clemency. Jokowi must be high on drugs...

 

[Swaan]

Yet we can turn a blind eye to the numerous nations around the world that still have capital punishment. Even though many states in the USA have the death penalty for drug trafficking, it's not wrong for them? So it's fine for Indonesia to kill numerous civllians, but when it comes to drug smuggling it's wrong. My heart goes out to their families, but they should have known the consequences to their actions.

It's wrong no matter what country it's in. I still equally oppose the death penalty for drug smuggling regardless of where it happens and who it affects. This particular case is just getting a lot more media attention in Australia because it involves Australian citizens. Most people are more interested in what relates closer to home, that's just how we operate.

 

[Amundies]

This is actually quite interesting, as both sides are legitimate.

Sure, death penalty is harsh, but imo they've known the consequences of their actions, and they decided to play a gamble. So thus they deserve such actions.

Also it's important for Australia not to intervene in the laws/legislation of other countries. Each country deserves their state sovereignty.

Hate on me if you wish, but if you go to another country, you must be well aware of, and obey the laws of that country.

This is crucial. When people from other countries come to Australia, do we not expect them to follow our rules while they are here? And if they do not, then don't they face repercussions from law, based on what OUR law says? It's the same for Indonesia. If you go to their country, abide by their laws or face the consequences as stated by their laws. BUT it doesn't end there.

They've been rehabilitated, there is no reason for the death penalty. If they were going to do it, they should have 10 years ago. They're only doing it now because of their pussy ass bitch of a president who needs votes.

Lives don't matter to him.

Anyway personally I am completely against the death penalty. And yes, they deserve to live.

The law is there to protect people. How will executing 2 rehabilitated drug smugglers protect anyone? If anything, it will do more harm than good since if they're not executed they can go around telling people that it's bad to smuggle drugs. So if the law is causing more harm than good, then what's the point of it? This is of course a matter for Indonesian law makers, and not something that can really be affected by other countries so it's really up to Indonesia to sort that out.

kids dying in poverty is tragic not criminals.

Criminals dying is not tragic, rehabilitated criminals being executed is. There is a difference.

Well if you carry hard drugs which harm and ruin many people's lives through addiction,then to me it is similar to murder.

Ok, let's say drug smuggling is the same as murder then. Murder does not carry the death sentence in Indonesia, only premeditated murder (which this is clearly not a case of).

Anyway my view is that they should not be executed, if that's not been made clear.

 

[wannaspoon]

They played the game, they lost... gg...

Yes, it is sad, but, that's just fucking life...

 

[4025808]

Tbh if I was in the Presidents position, then I'd probably give life sentence. But the thing is I'm not the one to judge, since the judgement is done by the authorities. Whilst I am personally against the death penalty (considering context of the west), but generally speaking when you go to another country, you respect laws of that country. On the immigration cards inbound to Indonesia and Singapore, it explicitly states "Warning, Death to all Drug traffickers by law". Let the Indonesian people decide if they want to do this.

Besides, it's weird how no-one ever considers the amount of deaths done by drug use, and how everyone screams about how the death penalty is barbaric, especially when you're dealing with 2 drug dealers who were there to try and make money through importing drugs and selling them back in Australia. It's not like they gave a shit about the outcome of their drug dealing at the time anyway. (they do now, but at the time they did not)

Tbh I'm really sick of other countries meddling with other countries laws, and telling them how to govern their own citizens. It's a sick, colonial mentality.

 

[chinmayagupta]

Haha do you go to homebush?

yea i did

 

[PhysicsMaths]

I thought society would have shifted away from the notion of penalty by death by now. It is utterly inhumane to selfishly take the life of another man. Sure, whilst people may argue that they are facilitating self harm and potential deaths of others, there will be more like them to take their place. There will always be a demand for drugs, and most likely, there will always be a supply of them. And I guess the sad truth of all of this is that life goes on. They will be executed. Their families, and the people around them will cry... but as for stopping this "death penalty", it seems that no political change will take place.

Hopefully, this event will mark the time where society no longer perceives the death penalty as being the right means of punishment for any offence.

 

[Queenroot]

This is actually quite interesting, as both sides are legitimate.



This is crucial. When people from other countries come to Australia, do we not expect them to follow our rules while they are here? And if they do not, then don't they face repercussions from law, based on what OUR law says? It's the same for Indonesia. If you go to their country, abide by their laws or face the consequences as stated by their laws. BUT it doesn't end there.



The law is there to protect people. How will executing 2 rehabilitated drug smugglers protect anyone? If anything, it will do more harm than good since if they're not executed they can go around telling people that it's bad to smuggle drugs. So if the law is causing more harm than good, then what's the point of it? This is of course a matter for Indonesian law makers, and not something that can really be affected by other countries so it's really up to Indonesia to sort that out.



Criminals dying is not tragic, rehabilitated criminals being executed is. There is a difference.



Ok, let's say drug smuggling is the same as murder then. Murder does not carry the death sentence in Indonesia, only premeditated murder (which this is clearly not a case of).

Anyway my view is that they should not be executed, if that's not been made clear.

i was opposing the death penalty...

 

[astroman]

rip

 

[BLIT2014]

7:50am:

Withdrawing ambassador 'is unprecedented'

Prime Minister Tony Abbott said it was unprecedented for Australia's ambassador to Indonesia to be withdrawn.

"I don't want to minimise the gravity of what we've done," he said.

"I don't want to personalise it but obviously I do regret that while my representations have been listened to patiently and courteously, they have not been heeded."


http://www.smh.com.au/world/bali-9-...ran-shot-by-firing-squad-20150428-1mvjml.html

 

[isildurrrr1]

Yet we can turn a blind eye to the numerous nations around the world that still have capital punishment. Even though many states in the USA have the death penalty for drug trafficking, it's not wrong for them? So it's fine for Indonesia to kill numerous civllians, but when it comes to drug smuggling it's wrong. My heart goes out to their families, but they should have known the consequences to their actions.

No they don't it's been ruled unconstitutional since 2008. You can't get death for drug trafficking in the US anymore.

We care because there's two Australians that's it. Aussies didn't mind and actually called for death for bali bombers. You're either for the death penalty or against it, there's no middle ground.

When as Indonesia 'killed numerous civilians?' That shit was in the cold war and you think Australia didn't play a hand in training their death squads? In fact we still train the indonesians in counter-terror ops.

 

[Drongoski]

Completely and utterly against the execution. They are not the same people they were 10 years ago and even if they were, I still think the death penalty is far too steep a punishment

In many countries, people do not share the same views on the death penalty as in Australia and other western countries. If any of you in future contemplate similar undertakings, please do not expect a "fair, humane and forgiving" legal system that you have come to expect, growing up here.

That does not mean I do not feel for Andrew and Myuran and their grieving families.

 

[jdennis]

If we ignore the fact that the death penalty doesn't even work (it doesn't deter possible criminals), I still don't see how executing people somehow solves the issue of drugs killing people. Two wrongs don't make a right here.

Someone made the analogy of a gun dealer not being responsible when someone is killed by a firearm purchased from his or her store. In the same way, it doesn't make any sense for dealers or smugglers to be blamed for people making the choice to use drugs. The only reason these guys were smuggling drugs was because there was demand for those drugs. They did not force anyone to take the substances, in fact it happens the other way around - if people want drugs, dealers will supply them.

I can't see how, in the 21st century, shooting someone in the face as a means of punishment is justifiable in any way. They should have been punished for what they did but I don't think anyone should have the legal right to take the life of another person.

 

[_traveler_]

I'm gonna give my 2 cents but to be quite frank I'm concern that this will either create a shitstorm or I'll get back lash for it.

Ignoring all political concerns of President Joko Widodo, without understanding the historical pretenses of these countries one cannot judge a countries actions with their own value system which is inherently normative and distinctly different. Much how like how people believe that authoritarianism or totalitarian systems fundamentally evil.

Multiple countries that have capital punishment within Asia. I believe to some extent this is influenced by historical contexts as countries like China were plagued with drug issues throughout the 19th-21stC. For them, drugs are inhibiting societies ability and capabilities to progress. As a state, they countries seek to protect their citizens through the use of capital punishment to deter drug traffickers/dealers. Whether you think it is effective or not, that is your prerogative. But the point is many developing and developed Asian states still have it for their own reasons. Western ideals of individuality, human rights, liberalism, and ect have become the normative stance to judge and justify our criticisms as well as our actions. In contrast, we cannot even have the slightest understanding that what they're doing is justified and rational within the mind of these Asian states. Community before the individual, the life of one for many is easily justifiable within these Asian states. Capital punishment is not there to 'punish' but rather there to send a message to the community and others as a warning. These are things that they seek in their society, a drug free society. States do what they need to do to create a society as well as a nation that is congruent with its cultural norms and values. A similar story that can be said regarding multiple gulf states. What I argue for is not whether or not capital punishment is justified within our context and within our society but rather if its justified within THEIR context and society. Blatantly slamming their nation and state within the media for the purpose of getting our citizens off death row is no better than going colonising Africa and imposing our value system, norms and way of life upon them. We are not them and they are not us.

Nonetheless, whether you believe its morally wrong or morally right is your prerogative. Keeping an open minded is important. I'm personally quite ambivalent mixed with a bit of indifference. Most likely due to the fact that I strong eastern and western values regarding specific issues. Its also probably has something to do with the fact I'm a fatalist.

Its interesting to see people argue that the death penalty is not justified for drugs but are for other things. Where do we draw the line? Those who argue that taking a life is fundamentally inhumane, where is our R2P those who are being massacred in Africa? Is it justified to take one's life to protect another?

just 2c.