The Bible (2 Viewers)

[Josie]

S1M0 and robbie1 - what is your stance on Mary, non-biblical traditions and the priests power to forgive upon confession within your respected denominations. And, is that what you believe personally...and if you're feeling nice go ahead and throw in some biblical justifications for say - praying to Mary or confessing to the priest?

Always an interesting point. I was always taught that no man can come between you and Jesus/God, your relationship is a personal one that cannot be mediated through one man. In the same way, only Jesus can forgive sins, not some smelly man in a box. Mary was nothing more than the chick who happened to give birth to Jesus. The main difference I remember during my scripture class and the Catholic scripture class in school was they made Mary moneyboxes and we painted pictures of Jesus. Can you tell I wasn't raised a Catholic?


^The above makes it sound like I'm not an atheist, eh

 

[stephenchow]

Not true.

He's seen as the leader, and representative of the Christian religion. He is refereed to as The Pope. What he does has an effect on Christianity in general, saying we see him as nothing is not true.

Lol at you.

Heard of Henry the eighth?
Yeah, well he told the Pope to piss off cause the Pope wouldnt let him have a divorce so he split from Catholism he started up his own denomination which is now called Anglicanism and the whole of England followed him meaning ....... (this is where you realise that the Pope is only for Catholics).
And heaps of other denominations started the same way, like Martin Luther thought the Catholic Church was corrupt.

So in saying that, how would THE POPE have any say or act as some dominant prescence for the whole Christianity Religon?

Go learn Studies of Religion and come back.

 

[trustmenever]

this thread is going forever , "does god exist" thread was bad enough already now this shit
seriously, all the fundamentalist needs to fuck donkeys to get over their arrogant attitude ,.don't fucking try to sweet talk with me ,
u r just believing all the conservative values that u have been taught Christian-boy by ur parents and u r reviving the statements like a pet parrot . y can't u justify the values with ur own intelligence and question ur beliefs rather then reading out some stuff from bible and try to challange everyone and convince them wht the good book said? " hey check out fuckers i have got a PHD on bible, Any one wanna piece of me?'""

fuck get over it

 

[bazookajoe]

this thread is going forever , "does god exist" thread was bad enough already now this shit
seriously, all the fundamentalist needs to fuck donkeys to get over their arrogant attitude ,.don't fucking try to sweet talk with me ,
u r just believing all the conservative values that u have been taught Christian-boy by ur parents and u r revive the statements like a pet parrot . y can't u justify the values with ur own intelligence and question ur beliefs rather then reading out some stuff from bible and try to challange everyone and convince them wht the good book said? " hey check out fuckers i have got a PHD on bible, Any one wanna piece of me?'""

fuck get over it

lol

 

[ari89]

this thread is going forever , "does god exist" thread was bad enough already now this shit
seriously, all the fundamentalist needs to fuck donkeys to get over their arrogant attitude ,.don't fucking try to sweet talk with me ,
u r just believing all the conservative values that u have been taught Christian-boy by ur parents and u r reviving the statements like a pet parrot . y can't u justify the values with ur own intelligence and question ur beliefs rather then reading out some stuff from bible and try to challange everyone and convince them wht the good book said? " hey check out fuckers i have got a PHD on bible, Any one wanna piece of me?'""

fuck get over it

No one attempted to evangelise anyone....what are you on about?
Read the thread first and then ask diane to make you a :care: thread

 

[robbie1]

ari89 - I will start with your question about priests having the authority to forgive sins.

This is what I want you to read:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

If you are serious about finding out the truth behind this Catholic practice, and how it is given to us by Christ, read the whole thing. No, not just the first paragraph, but the whole thing

To give you some indication, its about 2400 words long....feel free to browse that site, its very useful for people like yourself who are misguided when it comes to Catholicism. Its not your fault you were taught incorrectly

To the egg head who says "why dont you question your beliefs man....stop being a puppet man....why not be an individual bla bla bla"........who says I haven't questioned by beliefs?

I have indeed, and when I found the answers, my faith grew stronger and is now rock solid thanks for asking.

 

[bazookajoe]

y can't u justify the values with ur own intelligence

What the hell does this even mean?
Values I was taught growing up Catholic was to love your neighbour, love your family and basic concepts like the Ten Commandments.
I am a Catholic who doesn't believe in everything the Bible has to offer, but feels it delivers a clear message on how to act in life, and the values it has to offer are generally good.
I don't see how someone's intelligence is going to get them to disregard these values, which aren't even necessarily Christian or religious, just understood to be right.

I may have entirely missed the point, but your post was so nonsensical that it confused me

 

[Josie]

Stop rising to the trolls baz

Edit: Most religions teach good values, that's the primary reason they were invented.
Sorry. Discovered. Whatever the politically correct term to use here would be.

These also happened to be the values I was taught by my parents, without any religious help, but as long as they get through, who cares.

 

[trustmenever]

No one attempted to evangelise anyone....what are you on about?
Read the thread first and then ask diane to make you a :care: thread

Budi , r u on morphine at the moment ? y the fuck wud i waste my time on shit like that .i seriously rather take a piss at the arrogant and holy ideas . by the way Christian-boy, didn't answer my QA and was pretending to be all that , fucking pissed off with his arrogant attitude.
if u r a fundo i hate u too and will advise u to join those lunatics fucking donkeys ,

READ MY WORDS, I DON'T FUCKING ASK ANY-ONE TO MAKE A THREAD FOR ME , I M CAPABLE OF DOING THINGS ON MY OWN , BUDDY I DON'T TAKE SHIT FROM ANYONE, i mean anyone , thats for sure"
Call me a bitch or whore but trust me i can B THE BIGGEST BITCH when u try to mess with me.

 

[ari89]

ari89 - I will start with your question about priests having the authority to forgive sins.

This is what I want you to read:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp

If you are serious about finding out the truth behind this Catholic practice, and how it is given to us by Christ, read the whole thing. No, not just the first paragraph, but the whole thing

To give you some indication, its about 2400 words long....feel free to browse that site, its very useful for people like yourself who are misguided when it comes to Catholicism. Its not your fault you were taught incorrectly

All it comes back to is man made decrees and assumptions. Where does the bible say your local priest has the 'power' and right to forgive as Christ did? I see parts of Matt 9 quoted in a misleading manner.

4-8Jesus knew what they were thinking, and said, "Why this gossipy whispering? Which do you think is simpler: to say, 'I forgive your sins,' or, 'Get up and walk'? Well, just so it's clear that I'm the Son of Man and authorized to do either, or both. . . ." At this he turned to the paraplegic and said, "Get up. Take your bed and go home." And the man did it. The crowd was awestruck, amazed and pleased that God had authorized Jesus to work among them this way.

Jesus knew^[a] what they were thinking, so he asked them, <woj>“Why do you have such evil thoughts in your hearts?</woj> 5 <woj>Is it easier to say ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or ‘Stand up and walk’?</woj> 6 <woj>So I will prove to you that the Son of Man^[b] has the authority on earth to forgive sins.”</woj> Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, <woj>“Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!”</woj> 7 And the man jumped up and went home! 8 Fear swept through the crowd as they saw this happen. And they praised God for sending a man with such great authority.^[c]




It sounds much more like GOD authorised JESUS...NOT GOD authorised MAN.

Now back to your article:

Is the Catholic who confesses his sins to a priest any better off than the non-Catholic who confesses directly to God? Yes. First, he seeks forgiveness the way Christ intended. Second, by confessing to a priest, the Catholic learns a lesson in humility, which is avoided when one confesses only through private prayer. Third, the Catholic receives sacramental graces the non-Catholic doesn’t get; through the sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces are obtained. Fourth, the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective "feeling." Lastly, the Catholic can also obtain sound advice on avoiding sin in the future.

What justification is there that it was the way Christ intended?
Please explain the second bold bit to me...?
HAhahaha...if you don't believe that when you confess to Christ as doctrine explains as the way of forgiveness why would you trust a priests words? You've just shown thay you don't believe in Christ's power to forgive.

The only advantage is that the priest can advise you...but so can any preacher if you ask them...

Now robbie...its not your fault you were taught incorrectly. The truth is present in God's word not some random priest defending his monopoly over salvation. Try reading the bible

 

[trustmenever]

What the hell does this even mean?
Values I was taught growing up Catholic was to love your neighbour, love your family and basic concepts like the Ten Commandments.
I am a Catholic who doesn't believe in everything the Bible has to offer, but feels it delivers a clear message on how to act in life, and the values it has to offer are generally good.
I don't see how someone's intelligence is going to get them to disregard these values, which aren't even necessarily Christian or religious, just understood to be right.

I may have entirely missed the point, but your post was so nonsensical that it confused me

i have no problems with the values which r good and have great positive impacts on someone 's life and i respect religious people as long as they respect my values ( mutual respect ) , the people i hate r the fundamentalist , no matter wht religion they r , i hate them , THE END.

 

[robbie1]

ari - thanks for the tip but I read the Bible daily. If you read the Bible enough, you will become Catholic

Now its time for bed.

Im sure we will resume our discussion soon, but prehaps in private (msn) where we wont be bothered by anybody like trustmenever, who somehow thinks I am a fundamentalist lol.

 

[ari89]

ari - thanks for the tip but I read the Bible daily. If you read the Bible enough, you will become Catholic

Now its time for bed.

Im sure we will resume our discussion soon, but prehaps in private (msn) where we wont be bothered by anybody like trustmenever, who somehow thinks I am a fundamentalist lol.

I've read the entire bible through and through and that is a reason why I am not Catholic. It would be nice if you did not disregard my post. I read yours and the articel and the fact that the writer intentionally MISQUOTED THE BIBLE just shows that he is so stuck up in his own preconception. You are yet to answer one of my questions. The whole basis of that article was a sham, the bible clearly states that in Matthew 9:8 that they people rejoiced that God had given Jesus the power to forgive. It clearly does not say that Jesus gave the apostles that right.

If you read the bible with an open heart, first praying to God to show you truth you would realise that tradition whereby the Catholic church holds a monopoly over the salvation and eternal good of its followers is not bible based.

 

[Legham]

Can you tell me, off the top of your head, what that line is somewhere in the bible that says that people should preach their christianity? just for future discussion purposes..
Someone showed me it one time.. Gayest line in the whole world.. I probably wouldn't hate every christian if it wasn't for that line!

 

[ari89]

Can you tell me, off the top of your head, what that line is somewhere in the bible that says that people should preach their christianity? just for future discussion purposes..
Someone showed me it one time.. Gayest line in the whole world.. I probably wouldn't hate every christian if it wasn't for that line!

<woj></woj>

<woj>Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations,^[b] baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.</woj> 20 <woj>Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”</woj>

?

Sure it wasn't a mormon?
<woj></woj>

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Incase you missed my response robbie1:

The Bible is the Word of God for 2.1 billion people.

Christianity is the biggest religion in the world.

Irrelevant. Whether the Bible is believed by many or few doesn't explain how what you're doing here is worthwhile when I can do the same with any (at the very least similar) text.

Many turn their back on Christianity because of what they think are "contradictions" in the Bible or other things that might disturb them.

True. Just as you're turning your back on Zeus because of the problems with greek mythology.

Hence, by explaining passages in the Bible I feel I can help people realise that Christianity does indeed make sense, and if not help them turn to (or back to) God, then at least I can help them develop a little respect for Christians and their belifs.

Christianity makes sense in the sense that the iliad or greek mythologies make sense... I don't see why people would care that you can provide such justifications.

Unless you think you can somehow do a better job with your biblical justifications than others could do with other ancient myths I don't see why you feel this is a worthwhile task. If you've really questioned your faith as you say you have, you should have already (imo) moved beyond biblical interpretation - It proves nothing.

Sure it's possible to make sense of the Bible, just no better than I can make sense of aboriginal dreamtime stories.

 

[Legham]

Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

That sounds like it.. thats too long to remember

Well done on the quick finding! :O

 

[lengy]

YES!
FEEL THE ANGER!
USE IT!
muahahaha!

 

[robbie1]

I've read the entire bible through and through and that is a reason why I am not Catholic. It would be nice if you did not disregard my post. I read yours and the articel and the fact that the writer intentionally MISQUOTED THE BIBLE just shows that he is so stuck up in his own preconception. You are yet to answer one of my questions. The whole basis of that article was a sham, the bible clearly states that in Matthew 9:8 that they people rejoiced that God had given Jesus the power to forgive. It clearly does not say that Jesus gave the apostles that right.

If you read the bible with an open heart, first praying to God to show you truth you would realise that tradition whereby the Catholic church holds a monopoly over the salvation and eternal good of its followers is not bible based.

First, hello and peace be with you.

Second, I am happy that you have read the entire Bible. Thats a great achievement. Congratulations. Also, thank you for reading the article.

OK, now I know this may be annoying for you but I have found a much better source (biblical source) supporting confession and the forgiving of sins. You said you have read the Bible, so these quotes should be familiar to you.

Now don't think I am an arrogant person. Read my sig, thats the motto I try to live by

Its just that I know this what Christ wanted, and I want to help you realise it. Its so sad that so many non-Catholic Christians have a distorted percecption of our Church and some even believe the Catholic & Orthodox Churches are somehow not Christian. Very sad indeed.

Now I will post some of them here just incase you refuse to open the link

If you open the link and read it, and you still think the Catholic Church is wrong, then Im sorry but we have to move on to the next issue. You are looking at the evidence, yet you cant see it.....

I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ's ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an "indulgence").

2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.html

 

[ari89]

First, hello and peace be with you.

Second, I am happy that you have read the entire Bible. Thats a great achievement. Congratulations. Also, thank you for reading the article.

OK, now I know this may be annoying for you but I have found a much better source (biblical source) supporting confession and the forgiving of sins. You said you have read the Bible, so these quotes should be familiar to you.

Now don't think I am an arrogant person. Read my sig, thats the motto I try to live by

Its just that I know this what Christ wanted, and I want to help you realise it. Its so sad that so many non-Catholic Christians have a distorted percecption of our Church and some even believe the Catholic & Orthodox Churches are somehow not Christian. Very sad indeed.

Now I will post some of them here just incase you refuse to open the link

If you open the link and read it, and you still think the Catholic Church is wrong, then Im sorry but we have to move on to the next issue. You are looking at the evidence, yet you cant see it.....

I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins [not every priest/ nor provide them the role to determine who can receive forgiveness]

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins. [Yeah...what?]
<woj></woj>
John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place. [As above]

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear. [Who are you to limit the authority of the Apostles and then transfer it to any man? All you do is continually say the established fact that Jesus can forgive sins and that his chosen apostles could...i still don't see where he gives the priests the monopolistic power to do so?]

Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men." Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?

I believe you mean that the Catholic's must prove that Apostolic succession exists. Believe me, the local Catholic priest was not directly chosen by Jesus to be one of a select few Apostles (as opposed to the many disciples) nor did he view the ressurection of Christ. Who is to say that any man is equal to the Apostles that Jesus favored most?

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth. [Woo Go Jesus. Aren't we glad he forgives sins Need you mention it again?]

Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors. [We know God has the authority to forgive sins. Why continually bring up the established fact? oh wait I know! It's because you are planning on making some pointless connection that is by no means relevant]

Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church. [It doesn't say that there?]

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ's ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an "indulgence"). [Repeated with no connection to anything. And, as above]

2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins. [Please actually read your bible instead of relying on sources. You obviously haven't challenged your beliefs to make you grow stronger as you are in the typical Catholic mind set of ignoring the Word of God for some other mere mans falsification. We already accept that the Apostles were given authority to forgive...It still doesn't say that a priest has the power to forgive sins?]

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance. [The task of reconciling his people...like evangelism - spreading the Good News of Christ. NOT forgiving sins as if you were God]

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church. [It says that if you pray for forgiveness you will be forgiven...not the priest will forgive you because you can't pray to a priest, you only pray to God. There is no reference to confessing your sins to a priest. Confress your sins to one another and pray for one another so that you will be healed. NOT confess your sins to a priest and he will forgive you. Once you ask God for forgiveness you are not automatically healed from what has caused you to sin. You're brother in Christ's prayers for you might heal you though. Sounds a lot like 1 Timothy 2:1]

1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness. [This is pointless...I don't see why it was thrown in? All it does is disproves your entire argument "For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus." It definently doesn't say "For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Ye Ol Local Priest."]

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others. [The fact that this was mentioned totally demonstrates your ignorance towards the covernant of the New Testament. It was Christ's sacrifice that has freed us, we don't have to report to the priest and offer sacrifices as Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.]

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/confession [.html[/quote]

You clearly need to read the bible. By your logic I can quote 2 words from Genesis and connect it to another 2 words from John and then a sentence from Revelations to say that In the 5th day God so loved the world that he brought the 2nd coming of Christ.

Need you misquote any more scripture or make random assumptions from them?
What about the other quetsions? I answered your question and you gave a joke of an answer based on a distortion of God's Word. Not cool.

S1M0 and robbie1 - what is your stance on Mary, non-biblical traditions and the priests power to forgive upon confession within your respected denominations. And, is that what you believe personally...and if you're feeling nice go ahead and throw in some biblical justifications for say - praying to Mary or confessing to the priest?