The future for law students (1 Viewer)

[Metric]

what does BOS think the next 5 years will be like for law students?

on another forum I came across lawgrads.weebly.com which makes the points:

• australia has 30,000 law students at 36 law schools
• but only 60,000 lawyers and only 12,000 at mid-size firms or above
• 24% of lawyers at top-tiers have left/been sacked since 2008
• firms claim they will continue to downsize and limit graduate intakes
• firms are starting to outsource work to lower-cost asian countries
• companies are freezing/reducing their spending on firms

i've just finished clerkship season with a slew of rejections (for what it's worth, i'm at USyd with a D average and paralegal experience). i think the market has and is changing to the extent that classical beliefs (e.g. get a 99.9, get into a good uni, get good grades and experience, and the jobs will line up for you) will eventually change too. i'd be interested to know how others are approaching the situation; is it the case that we all have to pare down expectations and work in suburban firms or in government? and if so, why does the HECS system continue to apply exorbitant fees on law courses on the basis that law graduates will secure very high salaries? do you believe those parents (such as the south east asian archetype) that put immense pressure on their kids to get into and study law after the HSC understand the facts about the legal profession?

 

[RookieLaw]

what does BOS think the next 5 years will be like for law students?

on another forum I came across lawgrads.weebly.com which makes the points:

• australia has 30,000 law students at 36 law schools
• but only 60,000 lawyers and only 12,000 at mid-size firms or above
• 24% of lawyers at top-tiers have left/been sacked since 2008
• firms claim they will continue to downsize and limit graduate intakes
• firms are starting to outsource work to lower-cost asian countries
• companies are freezing/reducing their spending on firms

i've just finished clerkship season with a slew of rejections (for what it's worth, i'm at USyd with a D average and paralegal experience). i think the market has and is changing to the extent that classical beliefs (e.g. get a 99.9, get into a good uni, get good grades and experience, and the jobs will line up for you) will eventually change too. i'd be interested to know how others are approaching the situation; is it the case that we all have to pare down expectations and work in suburban firms or in government? and if so, why does the HECS system continue to apply exorbitant fees on law courses on the basis that law graduates will secure very high salaries? do you believe those parents (such as the south east asian archetype) that put immense pressure on their kids to get into and study law after the HSC understand the facts about the legal profession?

It's because Universities have to make money, and what's better than offering a 'prestigist' degree such as law? Also for premium prices and luring all the naieve HSC students into a dead-end course.

I think it comes down to parents, who influence their children into believing a degree will mean a job. I never wanted to do law but my parents pressured me into it, and most don't know about what's happening in the legal field and even if you inform them, they'll shrug it off and assume you're mad.

 

[moocow920]

Not sure if this is true or not but I hear a lot that a large percentage of people with a Law degree never practice as a lawyer as such. So though I definitely think there will be an oversupply in coming years to some extent not every one of these 30 000 current law students will actually work as a lawyer

 

[drpepper127]

I don't think students and parents would really give this much attention because it goes onto HECS. Wouldn't a significant increase in law course fees make potential students and their parents think twice about its worth? Wouldn't it separate those who are committed and interested from those who are doing it because it looks good?

Also, law degrees are applicable in a multitude of professions other than the legal profession.

 

[ilikecats]

It's fair enough that a law degree (or commerce degree for that matter) fits into the top fee paying tier. There is an oversupply of graduates for a profession that is quite popular and well paid. I think it's fine that it should cost more than a nursing, teaching or science degree because generally they earn a lot less pay but have a far greater contribution to society. Nurses don't make a huge amount, work shifts and have to deal with sick and vulnerable people. (Personally, I think if some degrees like nursing or teaching were free it might encourage more people to enroll in those courses)



I think the big law firms (and mid tier too) are taking advantage of too many kids. There is a wide expectation that 1) they will only take the top, well rounded students and 2)those students should be willing to work for free to gain experience because they are so kind and good. When that kid is too old or wants pay, it's ridiculously easy to find a new one because of the oversupply. Big firms can basically continue to do it because there is so so many kids who will do anything to work for them.

That being said, going into any degree with blinders on and only being willing to work with the best is completely wrong. I'm in accounting, working in a small firm. Used to be in mid tier but I hated it and left. This job is far more flexible with my uni study, has better pay and is just a nicer place to work overall.

I think you also get a lot of people who look as a law degree as "working in a law firm". Really though, most companies have some sort position for somebody with a law background, even if it is at McDonalds! And I'm sure if more people went into a small, local business and said they were looking for work and willing to work, you'd find a few who liked your work ethic and would give you a shot.

But basically my thoughts are:
- law graduates need to be limited in numbers, but encouraging people to combine law with other studies should be more readily done. (An understanding of basic law fundamentals can go a long way for all degrees)
-Graduates need to be more proactive and willing to work for small business/non typical law positions. You can all be earning 100k straight out of school, and you can't all earn 100k in 20 years time.
-Bigger business need to stop abusing under/graduates to get out of paying wages
-Fees are fine as they are

 

[Omnipotence]

why be in the game if you're not in it to win

 

[ilikecats]

why be in the game if you're not in it to win

Because not everybody can come first

By all means, aim to do your best every time, but getting a silver or bronze medal is still a great outcome.

 

[wannaspoon]

http://joboutlook.gov.au/occupation.aspx?code=2713&search=alpha&Tab=prospects

get my information from the Australian gubbyment... instead of a blog or article.. this shit is actually compiled by the Australian beureu of statistics... and actually paints a very different picture...

 

[Spiritual Being]

Aim to be partner and if you're unemployed, that's great too!

 

[Chronost]

D average with Paralegal is OK,but you should be looking for well-roundness, one of my family members just got in a top 6 law firm and he was only D average at UTS,he also had paralegal experience but on top of that he was part of a band and had his own business. It's not enough I think these days to just think marks and some experience will get you in, you gotta shine through.

 

[Metric]

http://joboutlook.gov.au/occupation.aspx?code=2713&search=alpha&Tab=prospects
get my information from the Australian gubbyment... instead of a blog or article.. this shit is actually compiled by the Australian beureu of statistics... and actually paints a very different picture...

unsure if you're being sarcastic, but i'd favour a summary of hard facts citing sources over a random government opinion, which is actually compiled by the department of education, not from ABS data. part of what the blog emphasises is that our public university system makes a lot of money from law students, which it uses to cross-subsidise other areas. of course you'd expect the education department to promote law, just as you'd expect all 36 law schools to tell year 12 students "doing an LLB can lead to a lucrative career".

 

[wannaspoon]

I actually bothered reading the whole thing and was still not convinced... yes, student intake into llb and jd programs are crazy high, but, how much of the intake do you really think graduates... I put the figure at around 30%, 40% at most... that article did take that into account, however, the scope the article is examining is limited to the corporate sector only... the article also provides details, figures and intentions of top teir firms only... that does not provide a full "diagnosis" on the health of the legal industry... I got sad and true news for you... if you are thinking of working in a top teir firm straight after graduating you're in for a very rude awakening...

However, I do concede that there are problems relating to the employability of graduates... it's just not to the magnitude that article is trying to proclaim...

The skills obtained by law students are also multi disciplinary... you don't need to be a lawyer after graduating... you can get into: management, HR, work for the gubbyment, policy work, statutory planning, etc... thats why they offer so many places... I personally am not seeking to practice when I have finished mine...

It seems like the article is written by a sook that cant find a job after finishing a law degree... instead of an article being a fair and balanced assessment on the health of legal employment opportunities...

Probably some guy who is having a sook about how he can't work at freehills, mallisons or clayton utz so he just writes an article which is, quite frankly, really cynical...

You want to do a degree with no career prospects try finishing an arts degree and applying for a job

 

[lawstu]

With ref. to 'least trusted profession' thing, good to know that if I practise as a lawyer, people's impression of me and trust in me fall like a stick.

what does BOS think the next 5 years will be like for law students?

on another forum I came across lawgrads.weebly.com which makes the points:

• australia has 30,000 law students at 36 law schools
• but only 60,000 lawyers and only 12,000 at mid-size firms or above
• 24% of lawyers at top-tiers have left/been sacked since 2008
• firms claim they will continue to downsize and limit graduate intakes
• firms are starting to outsource work to lower-cost asian countries
• companies are freezing/reducing their spending on firms

Some of it's true, some of it's hyperbole, some of it's bullshit.

As it is, though, it sounds like the author has a case of sour grapes or something.

i've just finished clerkship season with a slew of rejections (for what it's worth, i'm at USyd with a D average and paralegal experience). i think the market has and is changing to the extent that classical beliefs (e.g. get a 99.9, get into a good uni, get good grades and experience, and the jobs will line up for you) will eventually change too. i'd be interested to know how others are approaching the situation; is it the case that we all have to pare down expectations and work in suburban firms or in government? and if so, why does the HECS system continue to apply exorbitant fees on law courses on the basis that law graduates will secure very high salaries? do you believe those parents (such as the south east asian archetype) that put immense pressure on their kids to get into and study law after the HSC understand the facts about the legal profession?

How?

But of course, they look at more than grades, schools, etc. and weed people, and not unis, out by looking at resumes for ECs, etc. and highly consider references and interviews.

Just do your best and keep an open mind. Also, you can probably stop imaging doing a Gonski 2.0, becoming a partner at 25 and earning millions.

I think it comes down to parents, who influence their children into believing a degree will mean a job. I never wanted to do law but my parents pressured me into it, and most don't know about what's happening in the legal field and even if you inform them, they'll shrug it off and assume you're mad.

Yeah. Even now, my parents think that law is something it isn't, like a romanticised version of law with decent* pay (net and per h), conditions, work.

*To the reasonable person, of course.

 

[lawstu]

It's because Universities have to make money, and what's better than offering a 'prestigist' degree such as law? Also for premium prices and luring all the naieve HSC students into a dead-end course.

I think it comes down to parents, who influence their children into believing a degree will mean a job. I never wanted to do law but my parents pressured me into it, and most don't know about what's happening in the legal field and even if you inform them, they'll shrug it off and assume you're mad.

Prestigious?

Naive?

why be in the game if you're not in it to win

I lol'd. Yeah, definitely this.

 

[wannaspoon]

on the outsourcing of law jobs to overseas (asian countries)

have you seen how much a lawyer is paid in Hong Kong, Singapore, etc

A LOT!!! more than here...

If I aspired to practice (which I have no aspirations towards, would rather work within the policy field), I would actually be moving to these places for that sole reason...