seremify007 said:
The thing which you don't seem to get is... the difference between his stereotyping and yours- is that his is actually based on living it day-in day-out experience.
his 'day-in day-out experience' makes him a CPA eh?
1. Vacation work =/= Full time
yes. and so I suppose you work full time at pwc? 40 hour weeks for 52 weeks, 9-5? but wait a sec aren't you Bcom at UNSW? gee, that means you really aren't full time. or you have you got a time turner from the harry potter?
2. Again you've managed to bewilder me with the 'taking active part in the profit generating of the corporation' line... are you referring to whether we generate revenue for the firm? Or are you referring to whether or not issues which we raise are taken seriously by clients when their finstats won't get signed off?
more corp drivel. simple. Do cadets make their own analytical audit decisions and use them in interactions with real clients (is management that dumb? letting a school kid deal in corporate transactions?) or are you just guided by the real employees into understanding real life transactions. perhaps even chat with a client or two. (or are your just BS'ing and sugarcoating what you really do?)
As for the 'uni student that lives at home supported by mummy and daddy' line... I'm proud that I still live at home with parents. Simply put, if I didn't, then I probably wouldn't have time to have a home-made dinner (or at least a decent one). Then there's the obvious financial incentives of staying at home.
me too. I like free meals and accommodation. but a CPA/CA doing that? unless you're a mummas boy, then probably not.
I'd ask you for some real stats on your successful trading... but honestly, I don't care.
did I ever say I was successful? and which right-minded trader would brag about their 'stats' anyway. this is what I mean by your lack of understanding or regard for what people like me do.
What a good idea.
I'm just more curious to see if your first day/week/month/year on the job in IB is everything you think it'll be.
well according to you and statistics and rumors I'll be burnt out and have no social life in no time.
As for where I got the impression you thought you could get whatever job you wanted... hard to say really. That's right, it's your continuous reminder that you've got kickass trader experience and how you have the proper mindset knowing the 'rush' for IB making you a perfect candidate to get the job. Not to mention that you've got the great connections.
kickass trading experience? I did mention I know some who have had IB experiences.... but did I specifically say getting the job would be a breeze because of my perfect talents and oversized IB cock? errr no, that would be you making assumptions again.
Hmm... there's no "exactly what we do". It changes quite a bit on a regular basis and we're constantly given a new section/area to work on. Furthermore, each firm has it's own trade secrets (ie. methodology)... if you really want to know what happens in audit, go study it in uni or something.
hmmm yes it's all a secret eh? only for the top corp gun eh? It's funny whenever the little I say of what I do it is bragging at how im a 'kickass trader', but when I ask you to describe what you so humbly do, it's all a big secret. And I'm not asking what auditors do in audit. I'm asking you what you do as a cadet in audit. I'm sensing someone is getting a little too big for their 'job'.
However, what I think would be interesting is what you think grads in IB actually do.
getting whipped in 18 hour shifts while they lob grenades over cubicles? and lack of 'chicks' may I add? Well it depends on which departments. IB - M&A? Risk management? FICC? Equities? Sales? Trading? Research?
Whilst your trading experience at home may have similarities to whatever career it is that you're aspiring to, and that you are "risking" your "own livelihoods"... until you've actually worked in the job it is that you're aspiring for, you know jack.
sorry jeff, I know being a CPA/Auditor/Uni student can take its toll. As far as I take it, just because I haven't 'worked in the job I'm aspiring for' I'm quite inferior to someone who has, like yourself? Now if that's not belittling someone who is different from you then what is? You out of all people, whose seen the recruitment all happen, should know that many corporate recruiters don't just take kids who have been Bcom uni nerds, or cadet campers. They could get a BA'er for god sakes. Anyone who suits the attitudes and goals of the corp can be accepted. The skills and training can be easily taught. But i guess drive and passion for other things mean nothing to you without a Big 4 sticker on it doesn't it?
The only experience in industry is hearsay. So how exactly are you any different from the kid who studies Accounting in uni and has to do a practice set/manual book keeping assignment?
Yes, I guess I'm only qualified to argue with you unless I'm at least a certified derivatives trader, dealing in billion dollar transactions. See you're asking me how am I different from a uni accounting student, but if I do explain, you'll just take it as bragging. So whats the point? I really don't care if any of you take it as bragging anyway. I know myself and other traders alike that it sure ain't bragging. but if you must, I'll repeat what I do. And note this is no different to the activities of any of the other private traders our there.
I have traded shares, options, forex and CFDs with my father since I was 17. We analyse the markets and companies by the various media outlets, fundamental analysis (like your basic accounting P/E ratios, yields, statements and projections), and technical analysis (using software, scans, charts of various time-frames, statistical indicators, theories and trend analysis) - these are all learned through books, seminars, internet, experience and applied learning. and depending on our trading time frame we plan our trade of whatever instrument - Be it a share, option, CFD, future, currency in whatever market around the world.
The other logistics we have to deal with are the accounts at the banks and brokers we use.
Is there adequate funding in the accounts in case a trade/s go wrong? And how does time to settlement delay the withdrawing and depositing of funds?
In dealing with leveraged instruments, what are the margins of each product and how do I calculate my position? What are interest charges on overnight positions?
How does brokerage and other fees affect my position?
Is the liquidity enough? Will I get in and out smoothly? Or can I lose money through slippage?
If offshore, do we have to deal with currency exchanges? Tax laws and regulations?
That is just analysing your entry. Once you execute your order of long or short/buy & sell, methods of protecting your position and risk management involving stop losses and the position sizing should have simultaneously been taken into account. Calculations are always being done and double checked.
The psychology involved once you have an open position is most of the battle, which is nothing you can learn from a book or lecturer at uni or receive from playing a kiddy share market game. As you take in all the factors in news and current affairs, to any issues you have with friends and family - they all affect your attitude towards your open positions and future attitude towards the markets:
-"Damn I've promised to go do some errands but I really can't leave the computer when it's so close to the 4:00pm close. Do I enter an automatic Limit order in case my position moves violently? Should I call the brokers to make sure?"
-Looking at the real time market depth of orders of CBA, I see massive volume at $25.35. Could that be a fund trying to manipulate the price? Should I take advantage of this or be cautious?
-Oh, one of the indicators is signalling a sell. Should I wait til my stop loss is executed? Should I move my stop loss?
-Copper was down on the London metals exchange, but BHP was up in New York how will that affect my 1000 shares in BHP?
-US jobs growth data for January revealed that demand is up and therefore interest rates may be on the rise. How does the currency pair EURUSD I'm trading get affected?
-Will the US fed reserves stance on increasing interest rates affect our market this week? How about the slowing US economy?
-If a terrorist attack happens overnight, what will happen to my position? Is it hedged or protected? Or can I make money out of it?
-The worsening Aussie drought seems to have pushed up Wheat futures prices. Should I buy more on analysts calls?
-How about geopolitical tensions in the Middle East affecting oil prices. Will that increase the share price of Aussie oil companies I currently hold?
-My mate just mentioned to buy ANZ because he 'heard' of a rumor. Do I listen to him?
Ok. BHP has moved up $2.00 on good metals prices in london, and I just made $2000 in just 2 days. I feel like superman. It looks like it's going shoot up to the moon. Do I hang on? Or sell? Or Sell half? Or pyramid and add to my position on a techincal breakout?
And what happens when you lose? "Oh, I went long and bought Coles group because of a takeover bid, but I was wrong and the bid was rejected. It went down $1.50 and now I've lost $1000. Do I sell now coz it's bound to go back up." You hang on. Next day it goes down another 50c and you're $1500 down. Dammit I should've used a stop loss. Do you bite the bullet now ot do you listen to your ego and keep holding on?
What happens when a stupid decision makes you lose big? Or continue a losing streak? Will feelings of depression set in? Do you continue your quest, or burn out and go back to work? Should you gamble more next time to make up for your losses? Or is it all too hard and hopeless? This is all inner game. The battlefield in your mind. Now if you can't even sort out the emotions and demons in your head, how can you make money with book smarts alone? Will academia save you? Hell no.
Every trader goes through this roller coaster ride, whether you just trade shares once a month, or trade intraday currencies or soy bean futures on minute charts. And you can't be successful unless your bitten the dust several times. It's a process of refining your own trading system that is tailored to your life. There is no universal holy grail that will make everyone $$$. But it usually takes a lot of losses and emotional hits before novice traders realise this. They are humbling experiences. But with courage and determination, your passion will get you through, and you will be wealthy.
But it is definitely not for anyone who wants a quick buck. Many say it's one of the hardest games if not the hardest game on the planet.
---- now if you're not telling me that has taught me jack about how it all works then boy you must have a fat rabbit stuck up your arse. Trading sizable positions with your own money is no joke, and is nothing compared to paper trading. The psychological element and instinct is only to be attained through sheer experience. Now because of your biased, elitist mind you may take it that from the way I talk I think I'm a 'kickass trader',
but nothing can be further from the truth. If anything I have learned to humble myself. I don't have an impeccable record, nor am I 'rich'. I'm like most challenged traders out there, trying to refine my system through experience. And no-one is there to hold your hand. You discover, increase skill and battle everything within your mind.
Now to tie it all in with our argument, I do believe this great experience has taught me very well. No way am I saying I'm better than someone who has actual IB experience. but I do believe a very small minority of people my age have fully tasted it. Coz frankly, there are a lot of immature dickheads our age. They may have dabbled in a bit, been interested, played a few games, got lucky, but no real experience. The Meetings and seminars I go to are mostly filled with middle to senior aged men and women. In trading within an IB or related firm, the stories I read to the people who I talk to, they have never failed to mention the particular psychological component that are necessary in surviving. In their many years experience they have all lived through what I have tasted, and all say there is none other than experiencing it for yourself. Whether they be corporate IB'ers, doctors, lawyers, retired professionals, to mum and dad traders at home. Whether they deal in million dollar or hundred dollar contracts, risk percentage is relative to the trader. - So don't go claiming that working for Goldman in a cadetship is the only superior way to learn, because I really don't think they'd let you anywhere near a dollar of their real money anyway. Perhaps they or your uni have a 'market simulator', but that is what it is.
A game.
Particularly in the analysis of markets and trading, I do believe this will give me a little leg up when it comes to job interviews. I won't brag about any wins, but more how the whole thing has shaped me. However, I do acknowledge that corporates would look at other extra achievements of others with the same unbiased regard. Now whether an IB cadetship is just a bunch of hoo hah where they guide you through their M&A clients activities so you can see up close and personal how it's all done, or even let you speak to clients, or even execute real trades (which I highly doubt)... I dunno. It's apparent I've never been a cadet. But to say what I've experienced with real trading (let alone my extra-curricular activities), i
s jack in comparison to what you do at a Big 4, just proves you're still an upstuck uni-boi who thinks he knows all.
Meh. Frinkanator... you're not as interesting as you used to be. If I don't reply it's because I am too tired/lazy to debate. I'll let one of the many other BoSers keep you company.
I know I'm boring. it's the same old bullshit over and over again right? But let me say one thing: I have actually bothered in providing a little sample about myself, to try and make you understand what it's like particularly for private traders my age. But I'm still waiting on your answer to my question in outlining what you do, and why is it so superior to what private traders do that you can
call it jack in comparison.
After all this I have come to a conclusion about you. I think you paint too a rosy picture of yourself, as the glitz and glamour has eroded your judgement of others different to you. Kudos to you for getting into a corp cadetship, although I assume those positions are based on uni/high school marks alone. And
smarts does not equal competency. If it's one thing I've learned in trading - you can be the most skilled statistician or mathamatician and know the analysis back to front, but without inner game and management skills those brains of yours are nothing. Often doctors, lawyers and accountants that become traders bring their own 'intellect' to trading, thinking their success in their professions would easily translate to easy money. Boy are they wrong. It's usually the pompous, egotistical brains that burn out quick because of their perfectionist academics. Sadly many make it into IB, and they learn the hard way.
Your interpretation of living it day in day out is a flawed one, if you think all that is needed is cadetship experience. I can name numerous aspects other than high marks such as people and linguistic skills, the ability to handle risk under pressure, that are just as important. At most cadets are up close and personal with the action, but not mutually contributing to the transactions, and with the team holding their hand throughout the whole process. Do you really think they'd risk leaving you alone with clients? Anymore closer and you'd be a CPA. And from the tone of your posts, in your confidence that you would be auditing the IB's I apply for, you speak from the authority like you were one. Which is merely just a Bcom uni-boi fantasy. If you can prove it to me otherwise then please do.
In the mean time, don't patronise me until you have left uni and are an actual auditor for a big 4 with real experience. and then you'd probably still be up yourself.
cheers.
