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"the naturally smart kids aren't usually the ones who do well in the HSC" (2 Viewers)

undalay

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Alot of people think that they are "naturally smart" and teh onyl reason they dont do well in school is because they dont try. But the majority of them probably would not achieve at the highest level even if they tried.

and ofcourse "doing well" is subjective again.
Many of my friends consider a UAI less then 95 as a "fail".
However i'm not saying UAI reflects intelligence.

Personally I dont consider the UAI as an indicator of doing well in the "HSC", but rather the amount of effort one puts in.
 

Qrux

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intelligence is the ability to understand new concepts, well thats what the iq tests test. If people have an iq of above around maybe 130 most of them will be bored with every subject because they dont provide anything nearly challenging. so if everything was boring to you wouldnt it be better to choose subjects that require you to do the least work, just because your intellient doesnt mean you know more. 18month old babies can be more intelligent then nasa scientists.
so if a 18 month old baby with an IQ of 150 and a nasa scientist with iq of 115 did hsc physics i think the scientist would win but it is no indicator of intelligence just what they know. but intelligence helps in the hsc.

my brother has an iq above 140 which is in the 98.5percentile (test done with psychologist) which is considered genius but he did pretty average at school pickin gen maths n other subjects so naturally gifted arent always high achievers

i havent done an IQ test . . . itd be fun i reckon
 
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Mind-Revolution

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The majority of the high achieving / high ranked students at my school are mostly all effort-dependent. I know a few naturally intelligent people that would absolutely destroy them if they tried (English mainly, and multiple other subjects).

There aren't really any naturally intelligent people at my school achieving at a high level anymore, they mostly didn't care / don't care now.
 

jamesboyd9

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lyounamu said:
Well, they are not really "naturally smart" if they cannot even measure their performance in relation to others at school (i.e. they don't fucking know how dumb they are if they don't study!)
Perhaps the naturally smart ones have weighed up the benefits of studying hard compared to the benefits of not wasting the best years of their lives for something that is really not that important, and achieved an appropriate balance of study/not study. They know what it's like to be smart, having been naturally smart all their lives, and realise that it doesn't matter whether other people think they're smart or not, what matters is that they enjoy their short time on earth, and are better off not wasting it. They also understand that the ability to study is by no means a reflection of intelligance. A complete moron with a bit of determination can go through the text books and put in a ton of effort remembering everything, handing in essays etc. This doesn't make them a smart person. I see it all the time, people who are doing well in school, thinking that makes them smart, but are all fucking stupid, lacking the ability to think logically, problem solve, work out things for themselves, understand the things they learn. All they are good at is regurgitating the things they have been spoon fed through school.

The dumb ones, on the other hand, come in two different types. Theres the ones who are stupid, always have been, don't really care, drop out pretty quickly and go get some mindless job etc, that sort of thing. The other, more relevant type, are the ones who have never been in the top classes at school (or have, but have always been beaten by the 'naturally smart' kids) and as such feel a yearning to achieve, beliving that the path to success in life is through the 'top of the class'. They don't know any better because they have never been on the other side of that barrier. So they mindlessly slave away at their study, lacking the intelligence to look at the world and ask "why am I doing this? will it help me? is it worth it?". Eventually, of course, they begin to overtake the naturally smart ones, which is a huge ego boost for them. They then achieve very well in the HSC, go for the standard "I did well in the HSC" uni courses, get a high paying job and continue to work their arses off for the rest of their lives. They continue to feel the stress and lack of free time that came with the HSC year throughout the rest of their lives because that is what they have grown to be like. They think that that is what life is like, and there is no way they can change it, or no way they would want to change it anyway because earning money and appearing smart is the sole purpose in life for these people.
 

jules.09

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jamesboyd9 said:
Eventually, of course, they begin to overtake the naturally smart ones, which is a huge ego boost for them. They then achieve very well in the HSC, go for the standard "I did well in the HSC" uni courses, get a high paying job and continue to work their arses off for the rest of their lives. They continue to feel the stress and lack of free time that came with the HSC year throughout the rest of their lives because that is what they have grown to be like. They think that that is what life is like, and there is no way they can change it, or no way they would want to change it anyway because earning money and appearing smart is the sole purpose in life for these people.
I agree with that statement. The majority of adults I see fit into that category... it somewhat pains me to see that they all recycle the same values and lifestyle, not being satisfied but refusing to see that they imposed their own 'prison' on themselves. It's only worse if they expect the same of you ..

Get a good uai.

Get a boyfriend.

Get a job; a sweet well-paid profession.

Get married.

Have children.

Travel?

DIE.
 

itadakimus

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Well I think the "naturally smart" kids are so used to getting good marks with little effort, that when the HSC comes around, they're still not used to putting in more work. The HSC does require a proper effort and that is where they might slip up!


jamesboyd9 said:
Perhaps the naturally smart ones have weighed up the benefits of studying hard compared to the benefits of not wasting the best years of their lives for something that is really not that important, and achieved an appropriate balance of study/not study. They know what it's like to be smart, having been naturally smart all their lives, and realise that it doesn't matter whether other people think they're smart or not, what matters is that they enjoy their short time on earth, and are better off not wasting it. They also understand that the ability to study is by no means a reflection of intelligance. A complete moron with a bit of determination can go through the text books and put in a ton of effort remembering everything, handing in essays etc. This doesn't make them a smart person. I see it all the time, people who are doing well in school, thinking that makes them smart, but are all fucking stupid, lacking the ability to think logically, problem solve, work out things for themselves, understand the things they learn. All they are good at is regurgitating the things they have been spoon fed through school.

The dumb ones, on the other hand, come in two different types. Theres the ones who are stupid, always have been, don't really care, drop out pretty quickly and go get some mindless job etc, that sort of thing. The other, more relevant type, are the ones who have never been in the top classes at school (or have, but have always been beaten by the 'naturally smart' kids) and as such feel a yearning to achieve, beliving that the path to success in life is through the 'top of the class'. They don't know any better because they have never been on the other side of that barrier. So they mindlessly slave away at their study, lacking the intelligence to look at the world and ask "why am I doing this? will it help me? is it worth it?". Eventually, of course, they begin to overtake the naturally smart ones, which is a huge ego boost for them. They then achieve very well in the HSC, go for the standard "I did well in the HSC" uni courses, get a high paying job and continue to work their arses off for the rest of their lives. They continue to feel the stress and lack of free time that came with the HSC year throughout the rest of their lives because that is what they have grown to be like. They think that that is what life is like, and there is no way they can change it, or no way they would want to change it anyway because earning money and appearing smart is the sole purpose in life for these people.
Haha yeah, agreed. We differentiate between 'smart' and just 'studies obsessively'
 

Zephyrio

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"Natural smartness" is, in my view, one of the most banal and hackneyed phrases ever... As others have pointed out, what the hell IS "natural smartness" anyway? Einstein didn't come up with genius scientific discoveries by lying around eating banana splits... he worked incredibly hard. And I'm pretty sure he attested his success to perspiration rather than some inherent "natural smartness".
 
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youngminii

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Zephyrio said:
"Natural smartness" is, in my view, one of the most banal and hackneyed phrases ever... As others have pointed out, what the hell IS "natural smartness" anyway? Einstein didn't come up with genius scientific discoveries by lying around eating banana splits... he worked incredibly hard. And I'm pretty sure he attested his success to perspiration rather than some inherent "natural smartness".
Yes but do you really think he could've made those discoveries without being naturally smart?
Only the naturally smart that work hard get to the top
Then there are the hard workers
Then there are the naturally smart

Although, being naturally smart is probably better in life than being a hard worker.. The HSC somewhat warps this and favours the hard workers - as it should be

Oh yeah, being naturally smart is the ability to solve difficult real-life logical problems
In other words, "thinking outside the square" - Having a greater scope of understanding
That's what I think anyways
 

henry08

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If I get a UAI above 95 I will no longer be a virgin!
 

sleepplease

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I think it's two fold.

There is obviously a difference in intelligence in our population... There are kids that no matter how hard they work will never get a UAI above say 80, and there are kids who slack off but because of natural aptitude and an ability to quickly grasp concepts can wing their way into the 90s.

I'd liken it to sport. There are some people who are physically built to be athletic - their body type dictates that they will build muscle easily, not store fat easily, be long and lean etc. Then there are those who ARENT physically built to be athletic but work fucking hard and train etc.

Person 1 can only get so far if he doesnt train
Person 2 can only get so far even if he DOES train

Ultimately thus, if Person 1 trained he would come out above and beyond Person 2.

In the HSC you often get P1s not studying and P2s busting their gut. However the P1s who study will always come out on top.
 

jewoneimon

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i used to go to a regular high school before i moved to a selective one... though hard work can be a determining factor natual intelligence is in my opinion something that seems to get you through
i've seen one guy work himself to death, but me, who did little to nothing always beat him. then there's another guy who does even less than me, if that's possible, but pulls out godlike marks
 

wendus

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um, the naturally smart kids ARE usually the ones who do well in the HSC.
 

Bobness

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ccc123 said:
Lol at this thread, and specifically the 'Is Sonia natually smart' debate. Clearly, this argument can never be resolved since it is inextricably linked to the nature v nurture/ nativism v tabula rasa debate which invariably, can be discussed ad naseum.

And then there's the eternal issue of what constitutes 'intellgence'. Is it necessarily confined to academic success, or is it fair to say there are different types of intellegence that are not quantatively measured in school, and therefore the HSC?

But I digress....

In response to OP:

The HSC isn't a measure of intellegence, but rather, a person's ability to learn, retain and regurgitate large quantities of information. This is a cognitive skill, but is not tantamount to intellegence which encompasses more than what is tested in the HSC.

Therefore, holistically intellegent people, naturally or otherwise may not perform well in the HSC, while those who are of lower interllectual capability (but nonetheless possess the skills specific to the HSC) can still perfom well, and yes, sometimes to a higher standard then their more intellectually well-rounded counterparts.
I know you misspelt several words (obvious typos) but the first half of your post is very very insightful. The lexical set and philosophical insights you provide reveal that even your mistake of repeatedly writing 'intellegence' (sic) is a small insignficant detail, which should not detract from the cogent thesis you offer.

I assume you would align yourself more with the Aristotelian notion of the 'unscribed tablet' and John Locke's conception of 'tabula rasa' though right ie nurture :D? Simply because you later mention that the natural intelligence of some HSC students may be offset by their lack of perseverance / academic drive (i extrapolated this point, from the implications of your argument).

My personal response (in regards to the OP's discussion) would be a confluence of this epistemological point and Judith Harris's thesis in 'The Nurture Assumption'. I'd like to think that it is the most balanced perspective in this polemical debate.
 
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A few points on this topic:
1) I object the notion that sheer hard work will get you a good HSC mark and a successful career. I recently went through my trials in which I knocked a girl who was dominating one of my subjects right off the perch by 15+ marks. This is a girl who sat in an arts degree lecture on open day and asked halfway through what an arts degree was yet crams and rote learns every response. It's funny how a good grasp of the module and effective study can flog someone who just commits large slabs of content to short term memory.

2) I noticed a fair few of you touched on the notion of the dumb person who crams at school to end up in a job where they cram for the rest of their lives. Interesting concept.

At my school the teachers commonly repeat the anecdote of 'the little train that could' - the boy who wasn't really very good at anything but work his arse off all through highschool to get into engineering (the 'in' job in my coalmining area) and now he earns '400K a year'

I often think though: Life must really suck for that kid if through uni and throughout his working life he constantly has to compete with kids who are naturally smart and have human working habits.

Thoughts?
 

pijankengur

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scaredytiger said:
um.
winged prelims.
winged half of my half yearlys.
basically winged general maths, did minimal study for other subjects.

im currently topping general maths/drama.
Hold up. Are you suggesting you're one of these naturally smart kids that winged stuff and is doing alright?

If so, you're doing general maths .. lol .. you are in no way naturally smart.

If not, please disregard this post.

wendus said:
um, the naturally smart kids ARE usually the ones who do well in the HSC.
True statement. I'm thinking the people on this thread aren't taking notice of the keyword "usually".

cannibal.horse said:
A few points on this topic:

1) I object the notion that sheer hard work will get you a good HSC mark and a successful career. I recently went through my trials in which I knocked a girl who was dominating one of my subjects right off the perch by 15+ marks. This is a girl who sat in an arts degree lecture on open day and asked halfway through what an arts degree was yet crams and rote learns every response. It's funny how a good grasp of the module and effective study can flog someone who just commits large slabs of content to short term memory.



2) I noticed a fair few of you touched on the notion of the dumb person who crams at school to end up in a job where they cram for the rest of their lives. Interesting concept.



At my school the teachers commonly repeat the anecdote of 'the little train that could' - the boy who wasn't really very good at anything but work his arse off all through highschool to get into engineering (the 'in' job in my coalmining area) and now he earns '400K a year'



I often think though: Life must really suck for that kid if through uni and throughout his working life he constantly has to compete with kids who are naturally smart and have human working habits.



Thoughts?
My thought is that you're objection in point 1 is contradictory? You're the one who put in the hard work, night before is not hard work ..
 
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