Which Business course is best? (2 Viewers)

[Minai]

yes but let's just say it everything else was equal, then the B Com (Lib St) degree is better than any specialist or B Com degree.

oh about the communication and research skills, yes its up to the person and u can do honours, but my point was that the humanities and science offer different skills to that of business, and it is these additional skills complementing business subjects skills that employers r looking for in the higher paid positions. sure specialised ppl get hired faster and will get paid the more, but that's only in the short term. over time a generalist degree will earn more. plus if gives u broader career paths.

as for the specialist skills, c'mon do u really think u can stay in the one area for the rest of ur life? an avg persons changes career paths 4 times in their lives. a specialist degree is good for employers, but not for u.

say what u like about unsw or uts, u know ppl at usyd will think otherwise

About your first point - do you have any stats to back that up? why would it be better (as in, in what fields, what context)?

I dont care about other careers, the point of this thread is about business courses
I still think the extra year (or 2?) doing the liberal studies is a waste of time IF you want to go into business specific field, not if you want career options in languages or maths or whatever. the extra year could be better spent doing an honours or masters degree

also about your point "over time, generalist degree will earn more" - the problem with that is that most employers wont really care about your degree when you go for bigger jobs in future - they'll care about what jobs you were in previously and your experience and track record, so the point you make is just a fallicy(spelling), and you said yourself,. specialised people get hired faster, although thats not always the case

about your final point, refer to suvat's reply - they're merely stats, doesnt say much anyway, but it does kinda say that, for the Big4 anyway, its been shown they prefer UNSW or UTS graduates over Commerce (Lib St) students at USyd (this being just one example thats available on paper)

im not trying to discredit the liberal studies degree, its a great all rounded degree, and probably the most enjoyable commerce degree (cause of languages and other depth of subjects), but in terms of 'business' career prospects, its not really any better than a specialised commerce degree, and in my opinion, you can spend the extra year doing something specialised which would help get you a good graduate job

 

[D Day]

About your first point - do you have any stats to back that up? why would it be better (as in, in what fields, what context)?

I dont care about other careers, the point of this thread is about business courses
I still think the extra year (or 2?) doing the liberal studies is a waste of time IF you want to go into business specific field, not if you want career options in languages or maths or whatever. the extra year could be better spent doing an honours or masters degree

also about your point "over time, generalist degree will earn more" - the problem with that is that most employers wont really care about your degree when you go for bigger jobs in future - they'll care about what jobs you were in previously and your experience and track record, so the point you make is just a fallicy(spelling), and you said yourself,. specialised people get hired faster, although thats not always the case

about your final point, refer to suvat's reply - they're merely stats, doesnt say much anyway, but it does kinda say that, for the Big4 anyway, its been shown they prefer UNSW or UTS graduates over Commerce (Lib St) students at USyd (this being just one example thats available on paper)

im not trying to discredit the liberal studies degree, its a great all rounded degree, and probably the most enjoyable commerce degree (cause of languages and other depth of subjects), but in terms of 'business' career prospects, its not really any better than a specialised commerce degree, and in my opinion, you can spend the extra year doing something specialised which would help get you a good graduate job

do u have any stats proving my claim wrong? saying that acct firms dont hire Com (Lib St) students doesnt back it up. has it ever occurred to u that maybe Com (Lib St) students either dont want to do acct, or they were offered a better position, wherever that may be? (it works in both ways, saying that i dont have stats, hehe)

look B Com (Lib St) is the best business degree. consider everything else equal, ie grades, personality and characteristics are the same, the only difference being one has a B Com, and the other B Com (Lib St). in this case, when both are applying for the same job, anywhere u like, the person with the B Com (Lib St.) stands a better chance, because of all the extra skills gained in the humanties and sciences subjects. agree with me on that?

anyway, u missed my point, when i meant changing careers, i meant changing ur position in the business field and/or anywhere else, eg from being an accountant to a business consultant. it is still the best business degree, because ur knowledge can be transferred really easily from industry to industry as compared with a specialist degree. it is relevant to our future, and therefore, is a factor to consider when deciding the "best business course". lets face it, we're unlikely to stay in the same company/position for the rest of our lives. even if it means changing positions in a related field. agreed? and this is where the different skills in B Com (Lib St) come into play.

another thing good about the degree, is that u r more likely to gain a higher position sooner, because the extra subjects make up for experience gained by the B Com graduates (hard to prove right or wrong, no winners in this argument)

finally, it is not the most enjoyable degree to do at uni. do u know how **** hard the sciences and humanities, especially the sciences, are compared to business subjects? didnt think so. but again it reinforces my point, the graduate must've been able to adapt to new situations and apply new skills in order to pass the subjects required for the B Com (Lib St) course. it forces u 'out of ur comfort zone'. employers love this and will hire us cause not only r we highly skilled, but also multi skilled. this is y it is the best business course available. agree with me?

wow, i've enjoyed this argument

 

[Minai]

your first point - yeah I said I only had one example available on paper, but one nevertheless. Also, have a look at the Good Uni's Guide 2004 - the graduate prospects for the Business fields are better with a UNSW degree than from USyd (I'm unsure of where UTS stands, I'll have a look when I pass a newsagent next).

your second point - it seems logical, but it always depends on what the employer wants, thats too general a statement

your third point - how many majors can you do in a B.Com (Lib St)? I'm sure it'd be pretty hard to change business fields to say, HRM or Investment Banking with a Lib St. degree against a graduate with a specialist major in it.

fifth point - you can't expect an employer to think a few extra uni subjects would better than a year or two more experience in a business field? remember, experience is higher on an employers preference list than uni grades

sixth point - of course you'll be a better person by doing all these multi-skilled subjects, but the point is that it doesnt mean THAT much to employers...im sure you know that its well known that employers look for experience, involvment in societies, previous work, and personality more than what uni subjects or what grades they got - Just look at profiles of graduates, or their employers.
I'll agree with you that if everything was equal with everything (including majors), the Lib Studies student probably would have a better chance, BUT, this is a hypothetical situation. What im saying is that in the employers eyes, the Lib Std. degree isnt much better than a straight Bcom because of their priorities in wanting someone with experience etc.

you have good points, however, you place too much emphasis on the liberal studies getting you everywhere, but employers value other things over your uni degree.
also, the good uni's guide stats (not perfect, but the only thing we have to compare) show there are other uni's with better prospects for business than USyd.

 

[santaslayer]

look B Com (Lib St) is the best business degree. consider everything else equal, ie grades, personality and characteristics are the same, the only difference being one has a B Com, and the other B Com (Lib St). in this case, when both are applying for the same job, anywhere u like, the person with the B Com (Lib St.) stands a better chance, because of all the extra skills gained in the humanties and sciences subjects. agree with me on that?

anyway, u missed my point, when i meant changing careers, i meant changing ur position in the business field and/or anywhere else, eg from being an accountant to a business consultant. it is still the best business degree, because ur knowledge can be transferred really easily from industry to industry as compared with a specialist degree. it is relevant to our future, and therefore, is a factor to consider when deciding the "best business course". lets face it, we're unlikely to stay in the same company/position for the rest of our lives. even if it means changing positions in a related field. agreed? and this is where the different skills in B Com (Lib St) come into play.

another thing good about the degree, is that u r more likely to gain a higher position sooner, because the extra subjects make up for experience gained by the B Com graduates (hard to prove right or wrong, no winners in this argument)

finally, it is not the most enjoyable degree to do at uni. do u know how **** hard the sciences and humanities, especially the sciences, are compared to business subjects?

These points refer to your paragraphs:

1) Minai is referring to specialist occupations. ie. Accounting. In that case a Commerce degree is more straight to the point.

2) That's a very narrow view. What your not taking into account is the opportunity for higher training and development through degrees such as the MBA. I don't think any employer will allow you to change job descriptions without the necessary experience or qualifications. From what I can gather, you are basing your whole career on a mere undergraduate degree. You have not realised the potential for higher education beyond an unsdergraduate position.

3) I can't argue with you on that. You might be right.

4) Liberal Studies is like high school all over again. :uhhuh:

 

[D Day]

ok, this is too tiring, i'm not going to argue anymore cause we're just going round in circles. just a few last words

OF COURSE employers value other things. however, to determine which is the better / best business degree, we r just comparing the degree NOT the graduate. havent u forgotten how to test two variables? (either ur stats course isnt too good [very unlikely at unsw] or [more likely] my science skills r kicking in to play, hehe)
to test two degrees, assume everything else is equal, then, yes u said it urself, the B Com (Lib St) is the best business degree. everything else depends on the person, not the degree. at least agree with me on that.

and also agree with me that this degree broadens ur career path. a small point, but it contributes.

so as u said, "What im saying is that in the employers eyes, the Lib Std. degree isnt much better than a straight Bcom ", but it is still better, and therefore the best business degree available.

"you have good points, however, you place too much emphasis on the liberal studies getting you everywhere, but employers value other things over your uni degree. "

no shit. but we're comparing degrees here, not the "other things"
by the way u have to do two majors in my degree

for santaslayer, "1) Minai is referring to specialist occupations. ie. Accounting. In that case a Commerce degree is more straight to the point. "

no its the same, because B Com (Lib St) is exactly the same as the B Com except with humanities and sci subjects.

"2) That's a very narrow view. What your not taking into account is the opportunity for higher training and development through degrees such as the MBA. From what I can gather, you are basing your whole career on a mere undergraduate degree. You have not realised the potential for higher education beyond an unsdergraduate position."

der, cause we're talking undergrad degrees. whether u go for postgrad is up to u.

"4) Liberal Studies is like high school all over again. "

no its 10 times harder.

this is a US style degree (no undergrad business degree in US is less than 4 yrs) and thus, better for overseas employment opportunies in US and europe compared to B Com (maybe, maybe not)

look B Com (Lib St) is the best, cause it has all the advantages of any B Com or B Bus degree PLUS all the additional features, broading career paths and adding extra humanities and science skills which helps gives an advantage to u over normal B Com grads. u r unique compared to ur other potential employees (that's whats necessary, and that's y its the best)

from these reasons, if u cant c y the B Com (Lib St) is the best business degree, then u'll always remain an employee not an employer

 

[santaslayer]

"2) That's a very narrow view. What your not taking into account is the opportunity for higher training and development through degrees such as the MBA. From what I can gather, you are basing your whole career on a mere undergraduate degree. You have not realised the potential for higher education beyond an unsdergraduate position."

der, cause we're talking undergrad degrees. whether u go for postgrad is up to u.

This was in response to the following:

anyway, u missed my point, when i meant changing careers, i meant changing ur position in the business field and/or anywhere else, eg from being an accountant to a business consultant. it is still the best business degree, because ur knowledge can be transferred really easily from industry to industry as compared with a specialist degree

Don't tell me you expect to be changing job descriptions based upon your undergraduate degree. I don't think many people will be able to go from an accountant to a business consultant just because they do BComm (Lib.Stds). I understand you are focussing on the undergraduate degree, but your above comment seems to be incorporate a whole career path, dismissing the whole idea of further education just because you are doing a more 'favourable' commerce degree.

 

[RIZAL]

...What your not taking into account is the opportunity for higher training and development through degrees such as the MBA. I don't think any employer will allow you to change job descriptions without the necessary experience or qualifications. From what I can gather, you are basing your whole career on a mere undergraduate degree. You have not realised the potential for higher education beyond an unsdergraduate position.

Really really good point! I think a lot of uni students are treating their undergraduate degrees as the end of their tertiary education. In reality however, most CEO's in the top companies have undertaken further studies on top of their undergraduate degree.

 

[D Day]

This was in response to the following:



Don't tell me you expect to be changing job descriptions based upon your undergraduate degree. I don't think many people will be able to go from an accountant to a business consultant just because they do BComm (Lib.Stds). I understand you are focussing on the undergraduate degree, but your above comment seems to be incorporate a whole career path, dismissing the whole idea of further education just because you are doing a more 'favourable' commerce degree.

oi, like i keep on telling u, we're comparing undergrad degrees here. what u do after that, nobody wants to know and frankly nobody cares.

i havent dismissed, or included the intention of a postgrad degree. its got nothing to do with the "best undergrad business course"

so forget "further education" for a sec and tell me which business degree u think is best?

 

[Minai]

to test two degrees, assume everything else is equal, then, yes u said it urself, the B Com (Lib St) is the best business degree. everything else depends on the person, not the degree. at least agree with me on that.

Your arguments are still based on assumptions nevertheless...assumptions thats these humanities and science skills are going to get you places in future. I'll agree with you that they may, and probably will, but unless I see some stats or proof that its the 'best' as you say, in my mind, the UNSW straight commerce degree would be better based on the facts: a) the Big4 hire more UNSW commerce grads than any other uni in NSW, and b) UNSW business grads have the best job prospects and best starting salaries of any other uni in NSW (souce: Good Uni's Guide 2004)

Essentially, you assume these extra skills will be valuable, yes I agree they should be, but thats not what the facts say right now

 

[Crikket]

ow, my eyes hurt from reading all this
sorry to be the cause of this massive debate

"oi, like i keep on telling u, we're comparing undergrad degrees here. what u do after that, nobody wants to know and frankly nobody cares. "

d day, isn't the whole point of going to uni and doing an undergrad degree to get a job and be successful after you finish the degree?

 

[D Day]

rem, i dont have any stats, cause this degree started in like 1997, so the graduates r just starting to emerge in the work place. and rem what i said about that big 4 stat , cause take into acct, that usyd ppl might not want to do acct or were offered a better place. a better stat is the % of ppl who applied that the big 4 hired. (an impossible stat to get)

but, we have agreed on one thing, that a B Com (Lib St) is better than a straight B Com
the only argument we have now is the uni that it comes from. well that's an argument that can never be resolve so i wont start.

but thanks for the argument

"d day, isn't the whole point of going to uni and doing an undergrad degree to get a job and be successful after you finish the degree?"

i didnt mean it in that way

 

[santaslayer]

rem, i dont have any stats, cause this degree started in like 1997, so the graduates r just starting to emerge in the work place.

That's flawed. If what you are saying is true, then how in the world do you justify the 'greatness' and 'superiority' of a BComm (Lb.Stds) degree over straight Commerce when nothing has occured in the past which may prove and justify your mindless promotion over your particular degree?

At least I take the time and effort to research about UoW and how great it truly is before I post it up on a public forum. :uhhuh: :uhhuh:

 

[D Day]

oi remember that if u have stats, that was for 4 yrs ago. who knows what the stats will be in 4 yrs time for any degree or uni?

just like in business, i'm taking a risk. but c'mon put urself in an employer situation. y wouldn't u favour someone who has a little extra? someone who is unique compared to the competition? someone, who has is just as qualified as the others, except better? y not? of course u would choose them. oh, dont bring "personal attributes" and all that in cause that's up to the person not the degree.

 

[Toodulu]

haha okay i can't be bothered reading everything. but yeh hey i'm doing com lib as well, are you taking the communications unit next semester D_Day?

and yeh for the thread starter - com lib is a good option if you're a bit confused and have no idea what you want to do, or if you want to do too many things. none of the 1st year commerce units are compulsory (so you don't need to take accounting thank god), and you can also do spiffy things like languages, anthropology, sociology, psychology etc etc. you do 2 commerce majors, and you can do a 3rd major from the arts or science faculty. it's a 4 year course, heaps flexible and extremely radsome.
so i'd go for com lib if you want a bit of humanities and keep some sanity
for straight commerce i would probably head to unsw first, and then UTS for their very practical course. to be honest i'm not the biggest fan of the usyd eco&bus faculty but what can you do.

That's flawed. If what you are saying is true, then how in the world do you justify the 'greatness' and 'superiority' of a BComm (Lb.Stds) degree over straight Commerce when nothing has occured in the past which may prove and justify your mindless promotion over your particular degree?

dude, the "superiority" isn't snobbery or mindless promotion, but simple logic
- 4 years > 3 years, ie. you learn more, and it's a better option for someone who doesn't want to stay at uni for 5 years for a combined degree
- you can tailor your course to only study the units you want, or you can also pick to study the same junior units as someone with a straight commerce degree
- you can pick electives from the commerce, arts and science faculty, rather than just commerce

 

[mushroom_head]

this may sound stupid, but does business=commerce? exactly the same?

 

[D Day]

yea we've have that communication subject in sem 2, i'm on friday 11-1

ha i dont think this thread has help Crikket much, gd luck making ur decision

 

[Minai]

- you can tailor your course to only study the units you want, or you can also pick to study the same junior units as someone with a straight commerce degree
- you can pick electives from the commerce, arts and science faculty, rather than just commerce

While I think its all cool that you can tailor your course, wheres that gonna take you? To max. your career prospects, you should focus your studies on specific disciplines..and what do you mean by "only study the units you want"? I thought you could do that in any degree at any uni!

also, you can pick electives from ANY faculty at UNSW in a commerce degree..

 

[Crikket]

yea we've have that communication subject in sem 2, i'm on friday 11-1

ha i dont think this thread has help Crikket much, gd luck making ur decision

it's ok, i'll worry about getting the marks to get into the commerce courses first THEN worry about who to be persuaded by

 

[Crikket]

this may sound stupid, but does business=commerce? exactly the same?

this also may sound stupid, but i think a degree in business studies has a lower UAI cutoff than the commerce courses

 

[Crikket]

you can do a 3rd major from the arts or science faculty.

what aspect of science will be useful to me if i want to go into corporate business?