Why do people look down on UTS business so much? (1 Viewer)

[Johno23]

I personally know a uws law graduate who is making an absolute killing along with her husband who is also doing incredibly well and is a uts graduate. Husband's brother is a macq law graduate and is beyond rich. None of these people would be in this position if your "filter" system applied

I personally know a uws law graduate and her husband who is a uts graduate, both of which can't find jobs. Husband's brother is a macq law graduate and still can't find a job. This means there MUST be a 'filter system'.

Do you see how easy that was?

 

[mirakon]

I personally know a uws law graduate and her husband who is a uts graduate, both of which can't find jobs. Husband's brother is a macq law graduate and still can't find a job. This means there MUST be a 'filter system'.

Do you see how easy that was?

You really don't know how burden of proof works, right?

 

[mirakon]

There are other factors beyond "prestige" which people consider when choosing their university. These can include:

- Social side of university: Many people attend uni for the social aspect and some people prefer the social life at one uni over another. I know this doesnt seem important in getting a career, but if you are happy and enjoying uni, this makes it much easier to do well, which will help you get a job.
- Specific aspects of the degree: Some degrees at "lesser" unis have advantages over their prestige counterparts (i.e. education degrees at ND and ACU gives you greater access to the catholic education system, a UWS undergrad medical degree is quicker then the undergrad program at Usyd)

Fyi, ND was not my second choice (well Med was my first choice, but after that). I chose ND over MQ for law and I was prepared to select it over any university in the state. I carefully considered all the factors and I thought the uni was a far better fit for me. This factor to me outweighed any possible advantage of the "prestige factor". Now, I might have made a mistake, but personally, I dont see myself thinking in 20 or 30 years time "damn, should have tried for a more prestigous uni".

EDIT: I got that phrase from a unit of philosophy I did at uni.

Pretty much this, and i'd add convenience of travel in as another consideration

 

[enoilgam]

Pretty much this, and i'd add convenience of travel in as another consideration

I knew I forgot something.

 

[Trebla]

makes sense but not exactly. what you are missing here is the hundreds who dont get invited to the interviews/assessment centers because of the university they go to. a computer program filters them out.

If that were the case then no one from UTS or Macquarie would get invited to interviews and assessment centres. This is hardly observed.

Even in interviews/assessment centres where its 99% USYD/UNSW people (which is a very rare sight anyway), you can't say for sure that they were chosen just because they went to that university. It is likely that the stronger candidates happen to be from those places because in every interview/assessment centre I've been to (including banks, big 4 etc), I've always encountered a number of Macq/UTS people.

 

[Trebla]

ok well sydney banking has official "filters"

big 6 law firms have unofficial "filters" and then most survivors dont make it past interviews, is it still done via CVmail?

the big3 consulting firms have even higher prejudices compared to banking

also, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, i interned at pwc and kpmg sydney - i dont recall anyone from say Notre Dam for example at the interviews and definately noone that actually got the internship. similarly dont recall anyone from UWS. who knows maybe people from there dont apply to big 4? i recall the KPMG winter one being ultra competitive - only them and deloitte had a winter one going that year and it was definitely UNSW/USYD closed door gangbang


the point is - even if this practice is limited to the more snobby jobs, why would you ever limit yourself if you had the option to go to "better" university.
everyone keeps talking about individual merits blah blah blah, no sht thats the most important thing. UNSW commerce is half filled with dropkicks that want to chill on the quad lawn all day (i was one of them). but I stood a better shot at employment because i was at UNSW compared to UWS (sorry UWS).

Let me give you a personal statistic. My final wam was 63 (hahaha). im pretty realistic - do you think i would get a job if i didnt go to somewhere like UNSW?

I will reiterate my point that correlation does not imply causation. Simply going to UNSW does not increase your chances of getting a job. Also, WAM is not a big factor in the decisions made by a lot of companies, especially in the later stages - recruiters look for all roundedness.

Edit - Just realised this point was reiterated by others above lol

 

[Newbie]

ok if we want to get to the nitty gritty

1. social side? just dont go to uni - chill out at the pub whatever right. not sure how this is a legitimate consideration when picking universities. also not sure how someone in high school can make a determination on how the social scene is at a particular university via an open day either

2. specific advantages of the degree - this actually supporting my point right? if ACU is the best choice for getting a job in the catholic education system and thats what you want to do, then you should pick it because its clearly the more "prestigious" uni in this instance

3. travel time - not valid. distance between UTS and UNSW/USD is not meaningful. same with ND in sydney.


i know you wont regret your choices 20 years from now. but you might regret it during internship season but who knows correlation isnt causation right lol. the bias is there, its unfair and unjustified or blah blah whatever but its there and you just gotta play the game and play to win. to tell someone in high school that it doesnt matter is just irresponsible

 

[Newbie]

If that were the case then no one from UTS or Macquarie would get invited to interviews and assessment centres. Explain why this is hardly observed.

i dont recall anyone ever mentioning UWS ever in our company's summer internship recruiting. ever.
similarly for my group of friends across all the banks. macq yes, UTS once in a while but rare. UWS - zero.

 

[Newbie]

I will reiterate my point that correlation does not imply causation. Simply going to UNSW does not increase your chances of getting a job. Also, WAM is not a big factor in the decisions made by a lot of companies, especially in the later stages - recruiters look for all roundedness.

Edit - Just realised this point was reiterated by others above lol

WAM is an official filter. maybe not a big factor in the interview process but we are talking about getting the interview in the first place

 

[mirakon]

ok if we want to get to the nitty gritty

1. social side? just dont go to uni - chill out at the pub whatever right. not sure how this is a legitimate consideration when picking universities. also not sure how someone in high school can make a determination on how the social scene is at a particular university via an open day either

2. specific advantages of the degree - this actually supporting my point right? if ACU is the best choice for getting a job in the catholic education system and thats what you want to do, then you should pick it because its clearly the more "prestigious" uni in this instance

3. travel time - not valid. distance between UTS and UNSW/USD is not meaningful. same with ND in sydney.


i know you wont regret your choices 20 years from now. but you might regret it during internship season but who knows correlation isnt causation right lol. the bias is there, its unfair and unjustified or blah blah whatever but its there and you just gotta play the game and play to win. to tell someone in high school that it doesnt matter is just irresponsible

1. Depends on what you want to get out of uni. I would hazard a guess that the average person would want a more substantial experience than just a piece of paper certifying you got a degree. Furthermore, you can get an idea of the social scene from talking to other students, you don't form a judgement solely from open day.
2. I'm not sure we have the same idea of what the notion of "prestige" entails. Prestige has more to do with hearsay and perception than actual quality.
3. It is entirely valid when comparing universities such as Macquarie, UWS etc. not to mention that although the distance between UTS and UNSW is not great, if it takes you an hour to get to the city, then that extra 20mins it takes to get to UNSW can be a pain in the ass for some.

The bias is there in some companies, I don't think anyone is denying that. The point of debate is whether or not it is as widespread as you claim and whether or not this bias is so substantial that employers disregard other, arguably more important, qualities of the applicant

 

[Newbie]

The bias is there in some companies, I don't think anyone is denying that. The point of debate is whether or not it is as widespread as you claim and whether or not this bias is so substantial that employers disregard other, arguably more important, qualities of the applicant

in this case, the qualities of the applicant is the same. we are discussing whether the same person is better off in terms of employment opportunities had they gone to one university over another.

I am saying its pretty widespread based on my personal experience (and fk me i've been to a lot of interviews) and it seems to be boiling down to the fact that there is actually no downside in picking the more "prestigious" university so why not do it? push the scales in your favour as someone had put it

 

[Trebla]

The social aspect is definitely a valid and a major consideration. Many of my friends chose their universities because they felt that they fitted in a lot better than other places. This judgement is often based on how it is presented to them by the universities and current/past students as well as how many of their own school friends will be going to the same university as them. I know some people who have transferred from USYD to Macq for Law, despite USYD having a stronger 'prestige' in law. They said they felt they fitted in better in Macq than USYD and therefore were more able to get more involved in its extra-curricular activities. By choosing Macq over USYD, they found themselves in a better environnment to allow them to be more attractive candidates to an employer.

Another side of the social aspect is the culture of extracurricular participation. Some universities are far more active in their student clubs/ societies than others. These places often have a stronger emphasis in motivating students to get involved in extracurricular activities. If you're the kind of person who likes to get involved in university life then the social aspect of a university is definitely an important factor to consider. Such a person wouldn't want to end up at a place where people are all about getting good academic results and hardly anyone is enthusiastic about getting involved in extra-curricular activities on campus. Also, in terms of employment in the commerce-related jobs, going to a place with a strong culture of extra-curricular participation is a preferred option because they do matter on a resume.

The point is, you should be basing your decision on factors other than prestige. If you go for a course at a particular university just because of its prestige, that's the wrong way to go about it. Other factors should be weighted much more than the prestige.

 

[mirakon]

in this case, the qualities of the applicant is the same. we are discussing whether the same person is better off in terms of employment opportunities had they gone to one university over another.

I am saying its pretty widespread based on my personal experience (and fk me i've been to a lot of interviews) and it seems to be boiling down to the fact that there is actually no downside in picking the more "prestigious" university so why not do it? push the scales in your favour as someone had put it

Yeah but tbh its very very rare that two applicants would have exactly the same qualities other than the uni they attend, in which case uni *may* be a factor then. But that hardly makes it that important then, if its used to distinguish two equal applicants, since such a situation is pretty rare.

Again, whilst I appreciate your personal experience in this matter, and you obviously know A LOT more than me, i still think its difficult to come to the conclusion of this bias without any "official" sources or stats.

Why not go to the more "prestigious" uni? Read enoilgam's posts, travel, social scene, scholarship incentives etc. are other, more practical questions, to consider.

 

[Newbie]

The social aspect is definitely a valid and a major consideration. Many of my friends chose their universities because they felt that they fitted in a lot better than other places. This judgement is often based on how it is presented to them by the universities and current/past students as well as how many of their own school friends will be going to the same university as them.

Another side of the social aspect is the culture of extracurricular participation. Some universities are far more active in their student clubs/ societies than others. These places often have a stronger emphasis in motivating students to get involved in extracurricular activities. If you're the kind of person who likes to get involved in university life then the social aspect of a university is definitely an important factor to consider. Such a person wouldn't want to end up at a place where people are all about getting good academic results and hardly anyone is enthusiastic about getting involved in extra-curricular activities on campus.

i must agree that i probably went to UNSW because it was just the flow of the crowd from my high school.
but high schoolers dont get to see all that extracurricular stuff until O week if i recall. All the open days were about the courses, etc etc so you are literally picking based on the merits of the course.

Another point, you ask most people in the business/commerce faculty on whats important to them - its about getting a job. having fun and all that is great but is second priority. maybe thats different in your degree.

 

[seremify007]

I think something which Newbie should emphasise is he is from the finance/IB world where it's far more competitive and every little thing matters.

I'm from accounting/professional services. As an interviewer, I don't focus too heavily on this aspect because I tend to look for who would fit in. At the end of the day, academics reflect your ability to learn and regurgitate- so from our perspective it might be indicative of whether or not you will make it through post graduate/industry studies. That's about it really.

 

[Newbie]

im just looking out for you guys!

i really dont care where you all go to university. i hire guys who have high EQ and prioritize work over life

 

[mirakon]

im just looking out for you guys!

i really dont care where you all go to university. i hire guys who have high EQ and prioritize work over life

 

[Trebla]

i must agree that i probably went to UNSW because it was just the flow of the crowd from my high school.
but high schoolers dont get to see all that extracurricular stuff until O week if i recall. All the open days were about the courses, etc etc so you are literally picking based on the merits of the course.

Another point, you ask most people in the business/commerce faculty on whats important to them - its about getting a job. having fun and all that is great but is second priority. maybe thats different in your degree.

I don't know about UNSW, but at USYD there are a few lectures in open day which highlight the social aspect of the university. Most high school people often get a feel of the social culture based on what past/current students tell them at Open Day anyway or from friends currently attending that university.

My degree is Comm/Sci so I do know that most people in the Commerce faculty want a job, but what determines whether you will get a job is not based on which university you go to. Besides, if your priority is to get a job then the social aspect does come into play because extra-curricular activities matter in your resume and interview, especially in highly competitive finance/IB positions.

 

[Trebla]

im just looking out for you guys!

i really dont care where you all go to university. i hire guys who have high EQ and prioritize work over life

lol

 

[Johno23]

You really don't know how burden of proof works, right?

you have NO proof. What you have is a story, and a boring one at that.