• Congratulations to the Class of 2024 on your results!
    Let us know how you went here
    Got a question about your uni preferences? Ask us here

Why selective school kids need tutors? (1 Viewer)

oasfree

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
210
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Allows the student to CHOOSE their teacher/tutor, meaning the style of learning most conducive to student can be chosen, as opposed to leaving it to pure luck as is the case in high school.
I think this is more of the one-on-one market or the small group market. Many coaching places run large classes pretty much like schools and deliver boring lessons too? I know one-on-one is very good if you get a good tutor. It's possible to address gaps in knowledge left unfilled by teachers at HS.

Many teachers from HS in their 40s came from the 80s when UAI for entering education training was between 48 - 60. Many of them actually failed the HSC and still got in colleges to do a degree in education. Many did not study the subjects that they are teaching right now. But I would say that these teachers would not survive in selective schools. They would have transfered themselves long ago.
 

oasfree

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
210
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
There is a difference between being smart and being diligent. Not all smart kids are diligent. Not everyone has the ability to self learn. With some kids, even the smart ones, self-learning is very time consuming and inefficient because more than likely they would have many unanswered questions.
Agree on this. Smart kids can become arrogant and would not study hard. This is why many diligent kids will score higher purely by hard work and good memory. A balance is what required to be well-rounded and still score at highest level. Tutored kids can surely save time. But the downside is that being spoon-fed knowledge and arriving too too fast at solutions will take a way the need for building one's self-learning ability.

Many parents seem to believe that kids will not manage top 1%-2% in the HSC without using some form of tutoring service. Therefore they think to get into very high demand courses, the kids must have tutoring. On the other side of the class system is the elite private schools that charge so much money. They have better teachers and extra tuition wrapped in a big package. Their kids also do very well in the HSC to compete for top courses at University.

I have a feeling that by getting into selective school and spend money on private tutoring, parents save a little over 1/2 comparing to sending kids to elite private schools. And they can pick tutors that seem to know how to teach. It looks like a financial choice in this sense.
 

spence

Active Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
1,640
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
Many teachers from HS in their 40s came from the 80s when UAI for entering education training was between 48 - 60.
Are you really suggesting that performance in the HSC and teaching ability are related?
 

Trebla

Administrator
Administrator
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
8,401
Gender
Male
HSC
2006
I get this point. But self-learning is a big part that brings out the balance. If tutors always give the best solution, there will be no thinking. In the long term kids will be hesitant to think hard. But surely teachers do tend to run a one-way dialogue especially if you have a boring one. However I thought that teachers do organise groups of students to work and it's their job to do many activities at HS pretty much like primary school teachers do for little kids? Or at HS they just stop that group style and deliver boring instructions in a monotonous way?
These 'group activities' still exist and this occurs depending on the specific circumstances confronted by the teacher. Self-learning still occurs to some extent whether or not you have a tutor. Most good tutors do not simply give the answer away and the work they set does require the student to think for his or herself.
Many teachers from HS in their 40s came from the 80s when UAI for entering education training was between 48 - 60. Many of them actually failed the HSC and still got in colleges to do a degree in education. Many did not study the subjects that they are teaching right now. But I would say that these teachers would not survive in selective schools. They would have transfered themselves long ago.
There is something called a second chance. A teacher should be able to redeem his or herself from whatever past failures they made. Obviously, there are teachers out there who are complete failures even in selective schools. As for the rest, the teachers are trained to teach whatever subject they are qualified to teach regardless of whether they did it in high school themselves or not. They obtain the knowledge relevant to the subject they are teaching from their tertiary studies, if not from secondary school. Anyway, the courses today have changed dramatically since the teachers were once students themselves, so most would not have experienced some of the content that is taught today. Having good knowledge doesn't necessarily make you a good teacher. It's all about the communication skills...
 

TearsOfFire

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
143
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
I have a feeling that by getting into selective school and spend money on private tutoring, parents save a little over 1/2 comparing to sending kids to elite private schools. And they can pick tutors that seem to know how to teach. It looks like a financial choice in this sense.
Agree. You're getting free [decent] education and most parents spend that money saved on tutoring. A lot of parents see this as a good investment, hoping the money they spend on tutoring and education pays of when their son/daughter enters university.
 

hermand

je t'aime.
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
1,432
Gender
Female
HSC
2009
for me, i go to a selective school, and i have tutoring only for english, only for my hsc, because i'm not good at it & i have to do it & it has to count towards my uai. i don't understand why people have tutoring for subjects they do extension in though. if you do extension, you shouldn't need tutoring. especially extension two. don't do it if you can't cope with it on your own. it seems like a waste of time and money to me. do a subject that you're actually good at and save money on an expensive tutor.

i went to a private school from 7-10 and i believe that's much more useful than going to tutoring for all your subjects, just in my opinion anyway. there's a much better environment and if you're at a good private school, some of the teachers are amazing. i was really lucky to have the teachers that i did.
 

annabackwards

<3 Prophet 9
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
4,670
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2009
for me, i go to a selective school, and i have tutoring only for english, only for my hsc, because i'm not good at it & i have to do it & it has to count towards my uai. i don't understand why people have tutoring for subjects they do extension in though. if you do extension, you shouldn't need tutoring. especially extension two. don't do it if you can't cope with it on your own. it seems like a waste of time and money to me. do a subject that you're actually good at and save money on an expensive tutor.

i went to a private school from 7-10 and i believe that's much more useful than going to tutoring for all your subjects, just in my opinion anyway. there's a much better environment and if you're at a good private school, some of the teachers are amazing. i was really lucky to have the teachers that i did.
Yeah i go to a private school and i have great teachers. Except for math extension 1 and 2 for this year (aarrrgh) so i got myself a nice private tutor that i only go to for 2 hours a week (and this is flexible). The main reason i go to him is because i know this new math teacher of mine won't be able to teach and so i'll be learning from him. I also get awesome sheets etc of him and i get help when i need it.

I don't have tutoring for anything else though and never had one. I know some people who have a tutor for every subject though ==" I really don't see the point in that at all seeing as the other subjects are easy....

But the reason people get tutors from what i get from my friends is that the teachers at their school are HOPELESS. That is all.
 

hermand

je t'aime.
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
1,432
Gender
Female
HSC
2009
Yeah i go to a private school and i have great teachers. Except for math extension 1 and 2 for this year (aarrrgh) so i got myself a nice private tutor that i only go to for 2 hours a week (and this is flexible). The main reason i go to him is because i know this new math teacher of mine won't be able to teach and so i'll be learning from him. I also get awesome sheets etc of him and i get help when i need it.

I don't have tutoring for anything else though and never had one. I know some people who have a tutor for every subject though ==" I really don't see the point in that at all seeing as the other subjects are easy....

But the reason people get tutors from what i get from my friends is that the teachers at their school are HOPELESS. That is all.
hmm yeah fair point if your teacher is hopeless. i just deal and learn it myself, because none of the teachers at my school teach how i like, so eh.

yeah i don't get why people get tutoring for every subject. that's just a waste of money.
 

moll.

Learn to science.
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,545
Gender
Male
HSC
2008
Only the rich, mediocre kids who aren't quite smart enough to get into selective on their own actually have tutors. I went to a selective school in the suburbs, and only about half the grade had a tutor, and that was only for certain subjects.
 
Last edited:

annabackwards

<3 Prophet 9
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
4,670
Location
Sydney
Gender
Female
HSC
2009
hmm yeah fair point if your teacher is hopeless. i just deal and learn it myself, because none of the teachers at my school teach how i like, so eh.

yeah i don't get why people get tutoring for every subject. that's just a waste of money.
Yeah same here, it is a huge waste of money especially if you have crazy private tutors charging you something along the lines of $50+ an hr =="

Most of the subjects you can teach yourself though as you do, I just can't teach myself math extension 2 because the books i try and learn from don't explain well and like to skip many steps =="
 

hermand

je t'aime.
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
1,432
Gender
Female
HSC
2009
Yeah same here, it is a huge waste of money especially if you have crazy private tutors charging you something along the lines of $50+ an hr =="

Most of the subjects you can teach yourself though as you do, I just can't teach myself math extension 2 because the books i try and learn from don't explain well and like to skip many steps =="
yeahh, fair enough. i just don't get english at all and can't deal with my teacher so yeah. it's not something that comes easily and i can't teach myself it.
 

Kikkoman

Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
48
Location
Spear Pillar
Gender
Male
HSC
2009
I think the main problem is that many parents are sending their children to coaching colleges prior to sitting the SSET (and perhaps the OC test too), so they can be sure to get their children the places there. The children may not necessarily be thinking much of it, but just grow up thinking that coaching is a normal thing for kids.
Please excuse me if you think this is 'racism', but Asian parents are reportedly notorious of sending their children to coaching colleges for this purpose. The results are that this year, when the first year 7 class of 30 stood up to be taken on tour by prefects, there were 29 Asians and one Indian. The next class had maybe 3-4 Anglo/European, 1 Indian and the 25-6 Asian. The class I had to take had 2 Anglo/European, 1 Indian, 27 Asian. Similar figures hold for the remaining 3 classes.
So these kids are being coached to get into the schools in the first place. From there, perhaps not all of them will need coaching, but a lot of them still tend to get it. Some need it, others just want it because it's what they are used to. I can't disagree in saying that not every teacher is great at our school, but then again, what ever stops children from going to a teacher at lunch times and asking things, or seeking another (better) teacher?
Another reason some want coaching is 'to be ahead', or to have it because the person next to them has it. Really though, if people didn't need the coaching, then they would be able to handle learning it at a normal pace (in my opinion).
I don't have any problems with coaching for people who actually need help, and when that need is warranted. An example is my cousin, who isn't really too bright at Maths, and who goes to a school out west which ranked below 400th in the 2008 HSC. However, I don't think it should be warranted at selective schools.
 

spence

Active Member
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
1,640
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
I think the main problem is that many parents are sending their children to coaching colleges prior to sitting the SSET (and perhaps the OC test too), so they can be sure to get their children the places there. The children may not necessarily be thinking much of it, but just grow up thinking that coaching is a normal thing for kids.
Please excuse me if you think this is 'racism', but Asian parents are reportedly notorious of sending their children to coaching colleges for this purpose. The results are that this year, when the first year 7 class of 30 stood up to be taken on tour by prefects, there were 29 Asians and one Indian. The next class had maybe 3-4 Anglo/European, 1 Indian and the 25-6 Asian. The class I had to take had 2 Anglo/European, 1 Indian, 27 Asian. Similar figures hold for the remaining 3 classes.
Sounds like my school. My grad was about half anglo, and each grade down had progressively less
 

dp624

Active Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2008
Messages
2,326
Gender
Male
HSC
2008
Only the rich, mediocre kids who aren't quite smart enough to get into selective on their own actually have tutors. I went to a selective school in the suburbs, and only about half the grade had a tutor, and that was only for certain subjects.
I contest this.
 

oasfree

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
210
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
I think the main problem is that many parents are sending their children to coaching colleges prior to sitting the SSET (and perhaps the OC test too), so they can be sure to get their children the places there. The children may not necessarily be thinking much of it, but just grow up thinking that coaching is a normal thing for kids.
Please excuse me if you think this is 'racism', but Asian parents are reportedly notorious of sending their children to coaching colleges for this purpose. The results are that this year, when the first year 7 class of 30 stood up to be taken on tour by prefects, there were 29 Asians and one Indian. The next class had maybe 3-4 Anglo/European, 1 Indian and the 25-6 Asian. The class I had to take had 2 Anglo/European, 1 Indian, 27 Asian. Similar figures hold for the remaining 3 classes.
So these kids are being coached to get into the schools in the first place. From there, perhaps not all of them will need coaching, but a lot of them still tend to get it. Some need it, others just want it because it's what they are used to. I can't disagree in saying that not every teacher is great at our school, but then again, what ever stops children from going to a teacher at lunch times and asking things, or seeking another (better) teacher?
Another reason some want coaching is 'to be ahead', or to have it because the person next to them has it. Really though, if people didn't need the coaching, then they would be able to handle learning it at a normal pace (in my opinion).
I don't have any problems with coaching for people who actually need help, and when that need is warranted. An example is my cousin, who isn't really too bright at Maths, and who goes to a school out west which ranked below 400th in the 2008 HSC. However, I don't think it should be warranted at selective schools.
Yes, it seems like that. But I think to be fair, one has to look at the idea of aspirational parents among the Anglo-Celtic population as well. What I seem to find is

1/ Most Anglo-Celtic kids that come from middle class aspirational parents who send their kids to music lessons and follow all the way to complete their music education also manage to get their kids into public selective schools or elite private schools. They also hire one-on-one private tutors. That's why one-on-one music tutors also tend to offer math and English tutoring too.

2/ Anglo-Celtic aspirational parents tend to be picky when it comes to sending kids to a preschool. They look for structured learning for their babies! They look for childcare/preschool places that provide early learning to get a leg up for their kids.

There is no doubt that Asian parents hope to send their kids to best schools so they often get coaching for their kids to sit for OC and selective school tests. However I think there is so much potential in all Caucasian kids that they have not exploited. If they only learn at normal public schools, it's unlikely to get a good education because the quality of teachers is a real problem at this moment. Educational courses take in the lowest UAIs date back from the 80s when it was actually under 50%! The students at that time often did not learn any subject (at University) that they were going to teach later. For example, they could become a math teacher even though they failed their maths at HS badly ( and therefore allowed to do math in University).

It's a perception that Asian kids compete with Caucasian for places in selective school classes but the truth is that they try to compete with the top Caucasian kids in elite private schools for high UAI to enter Universities.

So the Caucasian kids that hope to enter selective schools are victims of the clash between elite private schools and selective schools.

I also observe that the English comprehension level of Anglo-celtic kids is very high among the smart ones. I also have reasons to beleive that they could have high GA ability if they want to work on it. So the only real issue is mathematics where if they don't have a tutor, they are stuffed. Public primary schools don't teach any difficult mathematics.

In the USA, a lot of American kids "hate" mathematics. Some ofthem claim "I am born mathematically crippled". Of course this is ridiculous. They like other subjects like social sciences because they are a lot more fun. So it's teh liking that is the problem.

Alsi I think there is a bit of issue with the level of mathematics of parents who come from the 50s and 60s. As they were lazy and did not study math, they could not help their kids right now. Therefore not spending money on coaching means the kids have no chance at mathematics.

In a real life case, I know that Caucasian kids at a public schools scored between 15%-30% when a teacher gave them a real math test. The best of the Caucasian kids scored about 63% versus over 80% by the top Asian kids. When the teacher ask the caucasian kids to work harder in math, some of them called him "crap" and told him "why don't you stop picking on me?". So he gave them detention! The school continutes to try to lift math level for the kids (very few Asian kids go to this school) but it's a tough business especially trying to help the boys.
 

oasfree

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
210
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
Only the rich, mediocre kids who aren't quite smart enough to get into selective on their own actually have tutors. I went to a selective school in the suburbs, and only about half the grade had a tutor, and that was only for certain subjects.
I think there is a sentiment in the wider community that it's unfair for kids to learn from anywhere else except public schools. This means kids whose parents have money will do better because they could buy tutoring service. However the same is not applied to music, arts and sport.

Learning is a pain. And buying tutoring service is a pain. I think if kids are not taught properly at schools, then buying educational services is normal. Kids can be smart but won't perform if they are not taught. Many parents spend money on education. Others spent money on beer and smoke or holidays. It's about choices.

Selective school tests are quite hard. So I don't think mediocre kids get in. Still those who are not smart enough will eventually fail to perform well before reaching year 10 and would be told to move back to their normal schools.
 

moll.

Learn to science.
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,545
Gender
Male
HSC
2008
What the hell? No-one gets told to leave when you're in a selective school, unless they're expelled for violent, anti-social behaviour.
Did you even go to a selective school? Cos we had some dumbarse kids in our grade who failed everything and they were just accepted as just part of the cohort.
 

oasfree

Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
210
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
N/A
What the hell? No-one gets told to leave when you're in a selective school, unless they're expelled for violent, anti-social behaviour.
Did you even go to a selective school? Cos we had some dumbarse kids in our grade who failed everything and they were just accepted as just part of the cohort.

Some selective schools are at the bottom of the league and could not even compare with good non-selective schools. So it depends. My nieces are in Sydney Girls where they say the low marks are about 70% and the average is about 80% for tests and essays. The top 5 selective schools in Sydney are very good. And you don't have to be extremely smart to enter a 5th ranked selective school.

So I do believe that some kids in selective schools outside the top 5 are dumb arses.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Top