World Youth Day 08 (1 Viewer)

[Iron]

I dont believe that I made any real argument. To deny pure reason is not to deny reality. It merely denies the possibility of pure reason being attainable in this reality. Like the Pope said, the Church's role is to humanise this world into something consistent with the greater, divine truth partly revealed to man by God.

 

[Enteebee]

I dont believe that I made any real argument.

You've extoled the virtues of religious faith and claimed it is completely analogous to the type of faith an atheist for instance has when it comes to their basic conceptions/assumptions about reality.

To deny pure reason is not to deny reality. It merely denies the possibility of pure reason being attainable in this reality.

Of course, I deny that we can know for certain objective truth but I don't deny that objective truths exist.

It merely denies the possibility of pure reason being attainable in this reality. Like the Pope said, the Church's role is to humanise this world into something consistent with the greater, divine truth partly revealed to man by God.

So is the Church's role is merely to help create a construction of the objective truth in the same way as the relativists you so deride do (without the need for such organisation)?

 

[Iron]

The Church claims that Christ is the absolute truth, the way and the light, yes. The whole backdrop to relativism is that there is no truth, so everything is therefore equally (in)valid

 

[Enteebee]

I'm guessing your main point here will be with regard to the existence of absolute moral truths (since I'm sure you already knew and I've already explained that it's quite easy to believe in absolute truth while still accepting that we cannot know it, moral truths provide a bigger hurdle though). I would say the search for objective moral truths is the same as the search for objective meaning for other entirely human concepts such as language i.e. That there is an objective meaning to the word "feeling" that is true and any other meanings people have for the meaning of that word are wrong.

 

[Kwayera]

This festival is not an invitation for debate. It is a celebration for those who believe that they have discovered real, tangible, transcendent truth. It is something far deeper, far richer, far more significant than any other faltering, hedonistic, self-centred, vulgar, barbaric ideology on offer.

Crusades.
Inquisitions.
Pope John XII.
Popes Innocent IV, Alexander IV and Clement IV, re: torture.
Let's not forget the Catholic Church's well documented support of the Nazi Party.
And one could argue that the Church's actions in condemning millions of of people to the risk and death by AIDS because of the "sin" of birth-control could be seen as 'vulgar' and 'barbaric'.

I could go on.

If you’re happy to merely skim the surface of the great ocean of truth and meaning, then that’s your affair. I recall some saying about swine and pearls: you’ll find no argument from me brother.

How sad that you limit yourself to the continental shelf of that ocean of truth and meaning, in religion. There's greater meaning in those abysses, away from the fanciful shelter of shallow water.

 

[Slidey]

Sure. But all religious groups are fairly bad in the past. From a purely pragmatic point of view, the Catholic seems the most appropriate for today's religious audience (from about 50 years ago onwards, and barring the stance on contraception which most people ignore anyway) and conversion and growth rates reflect this.

 

[Enteebee]

tbh I have a partial favour towards the catholic church for their brilliant theological minds, perhaps I'm simply not as well versed in the writings of muslim etc scholars but if someone could show equivalents of thomas aquinas / augustine I'll consider reading up on them.

 

[Kwayera]

You can't possibly argue that one religion (or one sect of a religion) is more "appropriate" than another like that with a straight face, Slidey. The conversion/growth rate of Scientology could equally reflect its own appropropriateness; would your stance hold true then?

If any religion was appropriate for "today's religious audience" it be something more like Jainism. But then, I can't make that determination.

 

[Slidey]

Nah I'm taking into account various factors here like which religion is best suited to combating a certain barbaric religion in the third world whilst maintaining a minimum of necessary human rights and liberties cough. Growth rates and conversion rates are thus important, for I doubt Jainism is well placed to bloom wondrously in Africa. Personally of the major religions today I favour Buddhism - a religion of the individual more than an opiate of the masses. Maybe.

 

[KFunk]

Nah I'm taking into account various factors here like which religion is best suited to combating a certain barbaric religion in the third world whilst maintaining a minimum of necessary human rights and liberties cough.

Mmm, Catholicism has done a great job combating that barbaric pathogen HIV...

Edit: Here's a fun example of ideology driving 'truth': http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

 

[Slidey]

Mmm, Catholicism has done a great job combating that barbaric pathogen HIV...

Edit: Here's a fun example of ideology driving 'truth': http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/oct/09/aids

Utterly shameful, really.

But while one of the central strengths of Catholicism is its unified hierarchy, Catholicism as defined in the West means more than a fickle leadership. I like that in the Western sense Catholicism is somewhat more lax and apologetic (i.e. not literal) compared to its siblings and cousins in monotheism.

I have no doubt the Vatican's stance on contraception is an utterly contemptible view, but I remain confident it will erode with time until it has gone the way of Creationism. In fact this is already happening.

 

[JaredR]

G-d Bless the many Righteous Catholics!

 

[bigneh]

In reply to Iron.

Christianity should not be anti-intellectual

Well it is.. the religious are rare in Intellectual circles, if you have any capabilities of rational thinking you come to the conclusion that Christianity is simply false, im not talk about the exist of god here but just Christianity.

But to suggest that Christ was mad and had 'no concept of the world around him' is totally ignorant and unworthy of response. You become the unreasonable, unthinking creature that you convince yourself that you’re fighting.

Haha, first of all its quite likely that Jesus didnt exist at all, and if he did he was merely a popular prophet (nothing supernatural). I highly doubt he died on the cross or any of that garbage. And of course he had no concept of the world around him, it was a couple of thousands of years ago, they had next to no explanations for what happens around them. And personaly, if people here voices in their head, they are mad. BFS its ignorant, what a dumb thing to say.

that you convince yourself that you’re fighting.

I dont have to convince myself, the evidence is there, you on the other hand have to fall back on the 'Its a matter of faith, not evidence' crap.

This festival is not an invitation for debate. It is a celebration for those who believe that they have discovered real, tangible, transcendent truth.

We dont care if you dont 'invite' debate, you get it. You cordon off apart of the city, steal tax payers money and indoctrinate children with crap and you expect there to be no debate.
Tangible evidence...... there is no, and never has been a single peice of evidence, especially tangible evidence for anything supernatural in the exist of mankind...

Oh and also you never replied to my previous question, name one 'evil' that an atheist is not willing to 'fight'.


I only saw this recently, a great watch (Its mainly about Christianity being false)
Parts 1,2 and 3 in order

http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=qc-mrJf45Hg&feature=related
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=IjAegPhQOUg&feature=related

 

[Slidey]

Sex is a powerful drive, and for most of human history it was firmly linked to marriage and childbearing. Only relatively recently has the act of sex commonly been divorced from marriage and procreation.

Yeah, sure... if you count most of human history as a few thousand years ago till now.

Oh wait, creationism right? The earth is 7,000 years old, and humans haven't been around for hundreds of thousands of years.

 

[Iron]

What have I done to earn this disrespect? You list my views as 'simply false', 'garbage' 'dumb' 'crap'. That appears to be the only 'evidence' you contribute. As to the remarks about Christ, i'll defer my vengace to Him.

However, you havent grasped, like my good fiend Enteebee, that this is not a matter of scientific evidence or truth. Faith, God supercede this. I cannot talk to you without this foundational concession.

Also, my previous, ancient point on evil was tongue in cheek. I was merely refering to willpower which will always lack if you subscribe to the evils of relativism. Rather youre necessarily racked with indecision and driven to mediocrity/individualism. Religious groups have ready-made, communal, black and white doctrines which makes their willpower stronger than the lone atheist shivering in the barn.

I refuse to watch your no doubt quality, peer-reviewed material, or engage with you anymore along these circular lines.

We must all strive to discuss the WYD in this place at this time
ahem

 

[Kwayera]

Rather youre necessarily racked with indecision and driven to mediocrity/individualism. Religious groups have ready-made, communal, black and white doctrines which makes their willpower stronger than the lone atheist shivering in the barn.

Well hey, cheap shot deserves cheap shot, so the lone atheist shivering in the barn challenges this: ready-made doctrines? CAN you think for yourself?

 

[Enteebee]

However, you havent grasped, like my good fiend Enteebee, that this is not a matter of scientific evidence or truth. Faith, God supercede this. I cannot talk to you without this foundational concession

Then in what sort of a realm do you want to discuss God? If you're going to put God in a category of things which necessarily cannot be argued over then it's game over, but you're being about as clever as if I did the same with any other myth.

I was merely refering to willpower which will always lack if you subscribe to the evils of relativism. Rather youre necessarily racked with indecision and driven to mediocrity/individualism. Religious groups have ready-made, communal, black and white doctrines which makes their willpower stronger than the lone atheist shivering in the barn.

You misunderstand relativism... I can be a relativist and have fervently held beliefs. Cults have stronger collective willpower than any of your groups, BNW enthusiast?

 

[Iron]

lol I did appreciate your other comments Kwayera. Very funny. I'll try to avoid the ocean metaphores now that a marine biologist is in ze building.
And I can only say that thinking for one's self perhaps leads to the ancient universal wisdom of Christianity. Surely you subscribe to any set of ideas? such as atheism.

An edit later for NTB: How about the realm of the divine? I conceed that it cannot be traditionally argued. I dont have the mind of God, I dont claim to have any answers other than a personal one to the broad yes or no question of Does God Exist. It is my nihilistic attitude that arguments here can be constructed and deconstructed and reconstructed and repeated. This is the nature of our reality. I have no interest at this time in converting anyone, or just slinging words with pretty dark and sad characters here. Quiet contemplation is all i'd recommend. If you come or have come to a different conclusion than me, then maybe youre right, maybe God is mysteriously using you, maybe we should shut up

But please, only WYD.
This is the will of your moderator

 

[KFunk]

I was merely refering to willpower which will always lack if you subscribe to the evils of relativism. Rather youre necessarily racked with indecision and driven to mediocrity/individualism. Religious groups have ready-made, communal, black and white doctrines which makes their willpower stronger than the lone atheist shivering in the barn.

Yet another mischaracterisation of relativism (and of human nature itself). I'm a relativist but I favour a community minded social democracy (as do many relativists that I know - of course, I also know some who go for the individualistic libertarian approach). Belief in transcendental moral truth is not the only possible motivational force behind human actions. Passionate belief in a relative truth does it fine for me (it drives me to be a vegetarian, involve myself in a medical aid group, etc...). One can still strive towards strength, beauty, truth and prosperity from within a relativist framework. While I always get a kick out of your rhetoric I still feel I should pull you up on this given public consupmtion and what not.

However, you havent grasped, like my good fiend Enteebee, that this is not a matter of scientific evidence or truth. Faith, God supercede this. I cannot talk to you without this foundational concession.

Enter 'hand waving'?

 

[Iron]

You misunderstand relativism... I can be a relativist and have fervently held beliefs. Cults have stronger collective willpower than any of your groups, BNW enthusiast?

Yes I realise that relativists can have fervent beliefs (and the biggest hole is nationalism), but I dont believe that the will can be as sincere or as sustained. The test to me is on what you'd give your life for. BMW? Home? Justice? Love? Eternal paradise? Religion can absorb massive opposition. Christianity thrives on this, it grew out of it. It had variants in, say, Ghandi's non-cooperation. Take the middle east...

Hi KFunk! I cant resist a stacks-on. By the morrow, UIC will have probably sunk this.
But, I part ways with you for the time being. Liberal-democracy and the relativism inherent in it, will always be weaker, less decisive, less able to recognise and act on threats, because it struggles to convince itself and its citizens that it is worth defending. I'm happy with a Straussian mistruth to the masses, about the greatness and sacredness of the state, but even this goes only so far.
A passionate belief in relativism is verging on contradiction