Would you have an abortion? (2 Viewers)

[Ranger Stacie]

fuck that is like one of the most ignorant things i have ever heard. in the past, when abortion wasn't legally available, the majority of women who've taken the black-market route have done so out of sheer desperation. it's not the ones who see it as just a bit of an inconvenience that they want to avoid who go to the back alley abortionists. it's women who are desperate, alone and often under quite a bit of duress from their family/partners etc.

i will freely and openly admit that i've had an abortion and i don't regret it at all. yes, i could've been more responsible. but everyone makes mistakes and fucked if i will ever let one mistake ruin my life. i have no desire to be a teenage mother.
you can judge people like me all you want and say that we don't deserve help or support but frankly, until you've been 17, already stressed to the max because of the hsc and a family in complete and utter disarray, earning a checkout chick wage and faced with something like that, your opinion doesn't mean shit to me. you simply don't know what you're talking about. and after all, it's easy to be sanctimonious when it's not happening to you.

oh, ps. i'm epileptic. when i'm over-stressed (whether emotionally or physically) i get more seizures. the average seizure, esp a stress induced one, knocks me out for about a day at a time. carrying a child to term would've exacerbated it incredibly, to the point where i'd have to *at least* double my medication. (and i already take a lot of it, it wears me out and i've been taking it nearly 6 years!). so basically that would've fucked my hsc up, not to mention working so i could support the fucking kid. it's not always as simple as 'oh, it's an inconvenience'.

im not here to judge people individually or offend. all im saying is my opinion. I feel strongly about this due to my own personal cicumstances. I hardly think I'm ignorant or - I know all of these things. theyve been said before, by many women. what it boils down to, for me, is seeing abortion virtually as murder. the arguments about pregnancies in the first trimester somehow being not alive, or non feeling, or just a bunch of cells, just dont cut it for me. besides that, i didnt just come out and start sprouting bullshit, im answering the question in the thread. nobodys forcing you to read it.
besides that, whether abortion is legal or not, you would have to be stupid to go to a backyard abortionist. its practically in the same category of stupidness as using a coathanger.
and on a different note, in regards to your ps, i have always maintained i feel differently about abortions in relation to medical complications. i am against abortions due to inconvenience

 

[glycerine]

im not here to judge people individually or offend. all im saying is my opinion. I feel strongly about this due to my own personal cicumstances. I hardly think I'm ignorant or - I know all of these things. theyve been said before, by many women. what it boils down to, for me, is seeing abortion virtually as murder. the arguments about pregnancies in the first trimester somehow being not alive, or non feeling, or just a bunch of cells, just dont cut it for me. besides that, i didnt just come out and start sprouting bullshit, im answering the question in the thread. nobodys forcing you to read it.
besides that, whether abortion is legal or not, you would have to be stupid to go to a backyard abortionist. its practically in the same category of stupidness as using a coathanger.
and on a different note, in regards to your ps, i have always maintained i feel differently about abortions in relation to medical complications. i am against abortions due to inconvenience

why doesnt it cut it for you? what reason do you have to feel for the poor little child? is it the fact that the majority of abortions are performed before the pain impulse has even developed? or is it that everyone is special and deserves a chance? or is it scientific?

you completely ignored my point re: backyard abortionists. yes, it is intrinsically stupid, in the same way that crossing the road anywhere but a pedestrian crossing or traffic lights is stupid - ie, there theoretically is a safer route available. but the majority of women who have backalley abortions (specifically when abortion isn't legal) are there under duress.

i don't understand your logic re: my ps, because while my medical issues certainly would've made it harder for me, it wouldn'tve been impossible. ultimately it came down to the level of inconvenience i was willing to put up with. so why would it be more acceptable to you?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

sorry, can you explain exactly what you mean by that?

I was explaining that to have a child at a young age is not 'just' an inconvenience - you said it as if a child being an inconvenience means that it's not a worthy reason to have an abortion.

please, i understand that you might not like my actions, but don't condescend to me or assume you know how i feel. the only regret i have regarding my abortion was that i was in the position of having to make the choice. owning up to the fact that i could've been more careful isn't regret, it's honesty. i maintain my position that i don't regret the choice i made to have an abortion.

Well you had quite a condescending tone with the other person, all I was explaining here is that in your paragraph you had a contradiction... you claimed there was no regret, yet it's obvious that there was regret. I also don't claim to know how you feel, the entire paragraph which is quoted above seems like a mixture of emotional garbage that has no basis in what I said :/

owning up to the fact that i could've been more careful isn't regret, it's honesty

Um no, it's regret. You seem like the sort of person that has to be right about everything, even when you've said two completely contradictory statements they both have to be right... You also seem to be putting forward a false dichotomy, as if because it's honesty it cannot be regret and vice versa. I believe it is honesty and in being honest with yourself you are regretting something which you did.

it's not about 'oh, you didn't go through what i did', it's about the fact that if you haven't been in that position yourself, you simply don't have the perspective of someone who has been. that's not trying to justify anything, it's common sense.

You're proving exactly what I said in different wording... "you simply don't have the perspective of someone who has been" is the same as "'oh, you didn't go through what i did'" - they both convey the meaning that only a person with first hand experience may make a comment about the issue. Which is i'm afraid for you - bullshit.

i reject your comparison because ultimately they are not the same thing. a person, ie someone who has been born, contributes to the world in some way. killing them affects others, ie family and friends. whatever you may choose to think, abortion ultimately affects no one but the parents, specifically the mother.

My analogy is fine for the purpose I was using it for... I never claimed that a murder is the same as an abortion I simply used it to show that requiring people to have first hand experience in different matters to be able to make a judgement is stupid.

i have never tried to pretend that i ultimately made my decision based on anything other than the inconvenience of being pregnant and having a child.

Well you said

"so basically that would've fucked my hsc up, not to mention working so i could support the fucking kid. it's not always as simple as 'oh, it's an inconvenience'."

is there some sort of clarification there that i'm needing?

additionally, the likelehood of me having a child with developmental abnormalities is higher than average because of the medication i take for epilepsy. yes at the end of the day i said 'i don't want to have this child so i won't', but there are lots of reasons why it was inconvenient and some of them were more permanent than 'i won't be able to have a normal yr 12 year'.

Yea but in the end it comes down to inconvenience... which is all that I said, I offered the 'greater good' just because you were claiming it didn't come down to inconvenience.

like i said, please don't be so condescending. i have no issues with openly discussing my experience and my reasons and all that stuff; everything i have said has been completely honest. if i regretted my decision, then i would say so.

Well you've been very condescending to myself and other people on this issue... particularily because we have no first hand experience. You say you have no problem discussing it, but when someone challenges you your first point of call is 'you don't have first hand experience', which is a total cop out to any sort of debate.

i also resent you assuming what i did was a 'mistake'. it was the best thing for me and i will never consider it a mistake.

The reason I referred to it as a mistake there is because I was offering two possibilities... one of the possibilities is that you come to terms with the fact that you did do it for inconvenience (something you claim you've come to terms with) or if not you learn to come to terms with (what would be) a mistake.

 

[ur_inner_child]

just want to repeat what most people have said about backyard abortions

you can get upset all you like about the moral issues with backyard abortions, but if abortion is illegal, it will happen, no matter how stupid you think it is.

its just the way society works.

 

[Ranger Stacie]

why doesnt it cut it for you? what reason do you have to feel for the poor little child? is it the fact that the majority of abortions are performed before the pain impulse has even developed? or is it that everyone is special and deserves a chance? or is it scientific?

its a human life! that is all. i wouldnt even think that point needs justification.

you completely ignored my point re: backyard abortionists. yes, it is intrinsically stupid, in the same way that crossing the road anywhere but a pedestrian crossing or traffic lights is stupid - ie, there theoretically is a safer route available. but the majority of women who have backalley abortions (specifically when abortion isn't legal) are there under duress.

the only thing that would drive someone to this would have to be desperation, however, it would still require stupidity in this day and age. The risks are huge and not unlikely.

i don't understand your logic re: my ps, because while my medical issues certainly would've made it harder for me, it wouldn'tve been impossible. ultimately it came down to the level of inconvenience i was willing to put up with. so why would it be more acceptable to you?

I feel differently about abortions undergone when there is risk for either the baby or the mother. whats the point of having a child, if its likely to not survive, or the mother wont. or even if the quality of life is likely to be shit. when i made this point, i was not neccessarily applying it to you; but it is a factor

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Ranger Stacie... when exactly do you feel that a sperm/embryo/whatever becomes 'human' ?

 

[Ranger Stacie]

Ranger Stacie... when exactly do you feel that a sperm/embryo/whatever becomes 'human' ?

when its fertilised.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

when its fertilised.

So you believe a fertalised egg should not be killed? I really don't understand why it would be at this point... I suppose the building blocks for the creation of a human have come together at this point, but there is currently no human present (unless you can show some sort of conscious?) so why at this point? If you kill an egg essentially nothing but the high probability of human life has been destroyed, no human.

 

[Ranger Stacie]

So you believe a fertalised egg should not be killed?

if you need to kill an unborn child..it was alive. this is my stance

 

[Not-That-Bright]

if you need to kill an unborn child..it was alive. this is my stance

While I said 'kill' I can apply that to grass.... I kill grass and weeds. I don't think you've answered my question properly yet.

 

[Ranger Stacie]

So you believe a fertalised egg should not be killed? I really don't understand why it would be at this point... I suppose the building blocks for the creation of a human have come together at this point, but there is currently no human present (unless you can show some sort of conscious?) so why at this point? If you kill an egg essentially nothing but the high probability of human life has been destroyed, no human.

i suppose that i regard
"the building blocks for the creation of a human have come together at this point"
this as life.
you can call me a religious nut (which Im not), a sanctimonious prick, judgmental-whatever. it's just the way i feel.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

i suppose that i regard
"the building blocks for the creation of a human have come together at this point"
this as life.
you can call me a religious nut (which Im not), a sanctimonious prick, judgmental-whatever. it's just the way i feel.

But why do you consider it life? If a house is being constructed, the foundation is layed... do you consider it to be a house already?

 

[glycerine]

I was explaining that have a child at a young age is not 'just' an inconvenience - you said it as if a child being an inconvenience means that it's not a worthy reason to have an abortion.

i think inconvenience is absolutely a worthy reason, especially at this age. i understand what i've said may have come off differently; my protestations against 'inconvenience' were trying to explain to rangerstacie that it's not an polarised a situation as she thinks.

Well you had quite a condescending tone with the other person, all I was explaining here is that in your paragraph you had a contradiction... you claimed there was no regret, yet it's obvious that there was regret.

i'll admit to being condescending to her. so yes i am a hypocrite in that sense.
i still don't think it's your place to say that i 'obviously' regret it. you're not me and you don't know what i feel. perhaps i should clarify so you understand: what i regret is that i was ever pregnant. i think that should go without saying. ideally, i never would have been pregnant. but, i was. i don't regret that, once i was in that position, i chose to abort. not in the slightest. do you understand what i'm saying now?

Um no, it's regret. You seem like the sort of person that has to be right about everything, even when you've said two completely contradictory statements they both have to be right...

yeah you know me soooo well. thanks for the insight.
i may not have clarified myself properly before, but that doesn't mean that i'm 'wrong'. i'm sorry, but how can you possibly presume to have more insight into my emotions than i do?

You're proving exactly what I said in different wording... "you simply don't have the perspective of someone who has been" is the same as "'oh, you didn't go through what i did'" - they both convey the meaning that only a person with first hand experience may make a comment about the issue. Which is i'm afraid for you - bullshit.

sorry if it seems like i'm saying you have to have had an abortion to comment on abortion. what i'm saying is, someone who has been faced with the choice of continuing or terminating a pregnancy as a reality and not just a hypothetical, understands the situation more than someone who hasn't. it comes down to what i said before - it's easy to judge when you're not the one making the choices. and it's your right to judge, but i do believe my perspective is more valid simply because i've had to make the choice.

My analogy is fine for the purpose I was using it for... I never claimed that a murder is the same as an abortion I simply used it to show that requiring people to have first hand experience in different matters to be able to make a judgement is stupid.

but the analogy is erroneous then, because murder of an actual human being is different to an abortion. just because something is stupid when applied to one situation (ie your example) doesn't mean it's equally stupid applied to another, different situation.

Well you said is there some sort of clarification there that i'm needing?

just because it was based primarily on the personal inconvenience of being pregnant doesn't mean that there weren't other reasons, such as my medical issues.

Yea but in the end it comes down to inconvenience... which is all that I said, I offered the 'greater good' just because you were claiming it didn't come down to inconvenience.

of course it comes down to inconvenience - my medical issues would've been a pain in the arse but they wouldn'tve killed me. i'm saying, i guess, that i had lots of reasons, including inconvenience and that's it's not as clearcut as being one or the other. but yes, just to clarify, my primary reason was the inconvenience to myself.

Well you've been very condescending to myself and other people on this issue... particularily because we have no first hand experience. You say you have no problem discussing it, but when someone challenges you your first point of call is 'you don't have first hand experience', which is a total cop out to any sort of debate.

ok. i see where you're coming from, but what you have to understand is that i truly do believe my personal experience gives me more insight than someone without any experience. i don't say that to be condescending, i say that to be honest.

The reason I referred to it as a mistake there is because I was offering two possibilities... one of the possibilities is that you come to terms with the fact that you did do it for inconvenience (something you claim you've come to terms with) or if not you learn to come to terms with (what would be) a mistake.

well, it wasn't a mistake. i don't need to explain all the stuff that was going on in my life at the time, but it was really the best thing to do. (if you're really curious you can pm me i guess, it's just a lot of it involves people other than myself and i'd prefer to keep that private. the stuff just involving me i have no problem discussing here).

 

[philly17]

so if a seedling sprouted would u not call that a plant? life is life from the first moment of conception until natural death.

 

[glycerine]

so if a seedling sprouted would u not call that a plant? life is life from the first moment of conception until natural death.

i disagree. i see things as constantly developing and yes a fertilised egg has the possibility of life, but fuck, so would my shower if i didn't clean it for long enough and it became mouldy.

 

[ur_inner_child]

so if a seedling sprouted would u not call that a plant? life is life from the first moment of conception until natural death.

i dont know whether the seed sprout is a good example. a seed, with no sprouts roots etc wouldve been probably better - it has all it needs to grow as long as it is supplied resources - water, food etc

 

[Not-That-Bright]

i'll admit to being condescending to her. so yes i am a hypocrite in that sense.
i still don't think it's your place to say that i 'obviously' regret it. you're not me and you don't know what i feel. perhaps i should clarify so you understand: what i regret is that i was ever pregnant. i think that should go without saying. ideally, i never would have been pregnant. but, i was. i don't regret that, once i was in that position, i chose to abort. not in the slightest. do you understand what i'm saying now?

I never said you regretted your abortion, I was talking about exactly what you said... I understood what you meant.

yeah you know me soooo well. thanks for the insight.
i may not have clarified myself properly before, but that doesn't mean that i'm 'wrong'. i'm sorry, but how can you possibly presume to have more insight into my emotions than i do?

Well it means that what you wrote at least was wrong, however of course you can clarify it later and I if i'm satisfied I won't say you're wrong. I wasn't claiming to have an insight into your emotions at all, all I was saying was that from you previous posts i'd observed that you weren't willing to conceed on anything you said... and ended up contradicting yourself a couple of times.

sorry if it seems like i'm saying you have to have had an abortion to comment on abortion. what i'm saying is, someone who has been faced with the choice of continuing or terminating a pregnancy as a reality and not just a hypothetical, understands the situation more than someone who hasn't. it comes down to what i said before - it's easy to judge when you're not the one making the choices. and it's your right to judge, but i do believe my perspective is more valid simply because i've had to make the choice.

This is ludacris. While your perspective does offer you some insight to the situation which I do not have, that does not by default make you more valid than me in any way. It is a cheap cop out so you don't have to deal with what anyone says.

but the analogy is erroneous then, because murder of an actual human being is different to an abortion. just because something is stupid when applied to one situation (ie your example) doesn't mean it's equally stupid applied to another, different situation.

The act of stupidity is the presumption that experience is what is needed to make a judgement, this is evident no matter what the situation is.

ok. i see where you're coming from, but what you have to understand is that i truly do believe my personal experience gives me more insight than someone without any experience. i don't say that to be condescending, i say that to be honest.

Ok, you might be saying it to be honest.. I doubt you're just saying it to be condescending, but either way you are being condescending. You may believe that your personal experience gives you more insight into the issue (which i'm willing to conceed is true) but you then go on to claim this makes your point of view more valid, which is not true.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

so if a seedling sprouted would u not call that a plant? life is life from the first moment of conception until natural death.

Well a 'seedling' is much like a baby, but if you want to use a slightly better analogy (which really is quite hard given the biology of plants), you would have to use a seed. In which case, I would say no... a seed is not a plant. If someone offered to show me their plants, and then pointed to an empty pot full of soil, with a tiny seed on top... I would not think 'that is a plant'. Just as if someone invited me to see a picture of their brand new baby and showed me a developing egg... I would not think that is a baby.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Well a 'seedling' is much like a baby, but if you want to use a slightly better analogy (which really is quite hard given the biology of plants), you would have to use a seed. In which case, I would say no... a seed is not a plant.

oh you.

thing is you said it better than me anyway lol.

 

[YBK]

Well a 'seedling' is much like a baby, but if you want to use a slightly better analogy (which really is quite hard given the biology of plants), you would have to use a seed. In which case, I would say no... a seed is not a plant. If someone offered to show me their plants, and then pointed to an empty pot full of soil, with a tiny seed on top... I would not think 'that is a plant'. Just as if someone invited me to see a picture of their brand new baby and showed me a developing egg... I would not think that is a baby.

The thing is, a fertalized egg will develop into what your eyes percieve as human. The percentage is much higher.