The Rationale of Religion (1 Viewer)

[Aquawhite]

No. I know what he means. It's belief in a different part of human experience. Religion is belief in emotion, science is belief in logic.

Lol, I think you're only making lots of people frustrated by saying that XD

Science is never a belief lol. Please try to find a synonym or just leave it blank for science is there and most of what is presented as science is hard cold proven fact. You doesn't matter whether you think or believe it is true. The matter is, that well.... it's true and isn't going to go away.

With this, I will try to get back to what I was aiming at with this thread: which is that Science is rational, linear thinking. Religion, well it's a bloody manifest of emotion, misunderstanding and manipulation (although they proclaim to teach us valuable lessons ).

 

[Dombrovski]

science is belief in logic.

No!!!

If I stop believing in gravity, I'm not going to open an umbrella and Mary Poppins myself away. I jump, I come back down.
regardless of what I believe; this isnt rooftop jumping from the Matrix

If I believe that I can breathe under water, its not going to make it anymore possible.
If I drop hydrogen peroxide onto a microbial sample, and it bubbles, the enzyme catalase is present... because that is the only way that reaction would occur; belief has nothing to do with it.

The science behind these things is not believed. It is, with measurable, clinical, and undeniable certainty.

We do not have a say as to whether or not it is there, so why do we need to believe it?

 

[yoddle]

Lol, I think you're only making lots of people frustrated by saying that XD

Science is never a belief lol.

You're frustrating everyone by using 'Lol' too much.

What do u mean by 'blind belief in science'?

Science is cold hard facts, you dont need to have to 'believe' in science when the processes/composition/information/etc is physically right there in front of you.

Religion is what requires 'belief', whereas science is cold hard tangible facts.
Some believe, some dont believe, but science is always 100% true, no doubt about it.

Well in a very practical sense that's not true or 100% at all. Using science you test and prove/disprove theories, which can be altered upon new discoveries. Older scienctific 'truths' which people thought were 'cold, hard tangible facts' are now considered laughable.

But on a greater level, life is about much much more than science.

E.g. love initially is a chemical infatuation, and after that dissipates our minds affected by environment, socialisation, beliefs and what gives us meaning all come into play. If I choose to ignore all science and wash my hands from it completely, I can still live without it, happily, using other tools at my disposal as a human being.

While it may exist in an absolutist sense, it is only given meaning because we believe in it.

If hypothetically we lived in an Orwellian society where 2 + 2 = 5 we could deny the existence of science. It is made real to us by belief, just like Tangent is saying. If we didn't believe in it things would just happen and we would give them whatever meaning we could. This doesn't have to be religious even though it has been that way in the past.

Yes without humans on Earth science would be here dictating stuff but it wouldn't matter to us because we wouldn't exist.

Do you get the point?

 

[kokodamonkey]

blasphemy!

 

[ad infinitum]

You're frustrating everyone by using 'Lol' too much.



Well in a very practical sense that's not true or 100% at all. Using science you test and prove/disprove theories, which can be altered upon new discoveries. Older scienctific 'truths' which people thought were 'cold, hard tangible facts' are now considered laughable.

But on a greater level, life is about much much more than science.

E.g. love initially is a chemical infatuation, and after that dissipates our minds affected by environment, socialisation, beliefs and what gives us meaning all come into play. If I choose to ignore all science and wash my hands from it completely, I can still live without it, happily, using other tools at my disposal as a human being.

While it may exist in an absolutist sense, it is only given meaning because we believe in it.

If hypothetically we lived in an Orwellian society where 2 + 2 = 5 we could deny the existence of science. It is made real to us by belief, just like Tangent is saying. If we didn't believe in it things would just happen and we would give them whatever meaning we could. This doesn't have to be religious even though it has been that way in the past.

Yes without humans on Earth science would be here dictating stuff but it wouldn't matter to us because we wouldn't exist.

Do you get the point?

wow what babble, u have no understanding of epistemology...
science is simply a systematic approach to understanding; one which takes in new data constantly and hence is ever an evolving representation of the world.
Religion was simply the failed science of the bronze age desert cults, failed in the sense that it does not take in new information and update itself; and hence is really nothing but dogmatism.

You don't understand what the term belief means, you do not 'choose' beliefs; the mind wants it's beliefs to logical cohere and be a good representation of reality...you either have no understanding of epistemology or no understanding of the English language and its syntax. As long as a person maintains that his beliefs represent an actual state of the world (visible or invisible, spiritual or mundane), he must believe that his beliefs are a consequence of the way the world is. This, by definition, leaves him vulnerable to to new evidence. Indeed, if there was no conceivable change in the world that could get a person to question his religious beliefs, this would prove that his beliefs were not predicated upon his taking any state of the world into account. He could not claim, therefore, to be representing the world at all.

 

[Cookie182]

Science is independent of individual perception.

That's why two external observers can verify a scientific claim.

Try doing that with religion.

Eg- In the late 19th, many people still believed in the all-encompassing "Luminiferous aether".

The famous Michelson-Morley experiment verified that it didn't exist. This result was replicated by thousands of scientists globally until it could be independently concluded, through heavy peer review that the aether was incorrect and a new model for EMR was needed.

People have applied the same methodology to religion with little success. Since in essence religion requires proof of the supernatural, this in many cases has been attempted numerous times around the world all with a null-result. None of the "religious evidence" is testable or verifiable. Yet people still believe.

It's sickening when people compare science to religion.

 

[MissGiggles]

+1.
There are barely any facts to prove the events which Christianity is based (or many other religions).

there is actually plenty of non-religious proof of the events Christianity is based on. There is Roman documention for the birth of a man known as Jesus bar Joseph of Nazareth, who went around annoying the conservative Jews, particularly the Pharisees, until they demanded Pontius Pilot crucified him. apparently crucifixion was so bad they saved it for non-romans. so unless you think the Christians broke in and made fake birth and death documents, he existed. the issue is whether or not you believe the stuff he came up with.

my problem with Christianity is that it is frozen in the dark ages. it is based on belief, and so if someone comes along and says even one belief wrong, they are at the very least ridiculed (*cough* kokodamonkey *cough*). whereas scientists like to have debates. even if you find the most solid proof, your discovery is a theory. that way if it turns out you're an idiot, you can just quietly step back into the shadows with dignity. no crusades were started in the name of science!

if there was a planet in space exactly like Earth, why couldn't there be similar life to us out there? i refuse to accept Earth is any more special than any other planet. at least the Church accepts that the universe doesn't revolve around Earth now...but there's a long way to go before those poor brainwashed Americans are free to think rationally.

 

[mcflystargirl]

this thread has pretty much been science vs Religon but why do they need to be completely seperate, there are christian scientists you know.

 

[missanonymous7]

this thread has pretty much been science vs Religon but why do they need to be completely seperate, there are christian scientists you know.

+1

There are even - gasp - theistic evolutionists!

 

[Tangent]

It's sickening when people compare science to religion.

Don't you find that ironic?

I think most religious belief is held together by all the things that science can't explain. There are many holes, especially when we as a race don't know about the origins of the universe, and what matter actually is.

How did we come to be? How did life come to be? Could it all just be random chance? Religion is an answer to all of these.

 

[ad infinitum]

Don't you find that ironic?

I think most religious belief is held together by all the things that science can't explain.

No they are held together by doctrine and indoctrination

There are many holes, especially when we as a race don't know about the origins of the universe, and what matter actually is.

Sure...we don't know everything...no one has ever claimed too- except the religious (i.e My specific God did it)

How did we come to be?

Evolution

How did life come to be?

Evolution..

Could it all just be random chance?

Evolution is not random chance...

Religion is the answer to all of these.

A bad answer, a bad answer developed in the bronze age.

 

[Tangent]

Sure...we don't know everything...no one has ever claimed too- except the religious (i.e My specific God did it)


Evolution


Evolution..


Evolution is not random chance...

Have you ever thought about the world before? It doesn't seem so, or maybe you did, but have just become comfortable in the rabbits fur.

First off, how did life originate? You cant just keep saying evolution, evolution, evolution, because something would have to evolve form something else. There are theories, about how earth came ot have life, but these involve an organism on asteroids and stuff (forgive me if im wrong, but surely you see my point?)

Also, the make up of the universe, the physics that govern it, the make up of atoms, why are they like they are? Could they be different? Why is any of this here at all? How did the whole universe come into being. If there was no divine being than wouldn't everything have to be by chance, seeming there is nothing governing lives etc. OR was there something that made all these events (such as matter forming, creating planets, life???!!)

A bad answer, a bad answer developed in the bronze age.

It is still an answer, and because there isnt a better one, it is still around today. This thread has some ridiculously bias people posting, who'd give iron a run for his money in their stubbornness. Can't you open your mind and see 'why?', regarding religion?
Its bad, bad, BAD!!!!... why? stop and think, the people who follow religion are not stupid (stay with me), they just get something out of it that we dont.

 

[Aquawhite]

^ I'd like to add that at least science attempts to question and investigate the unknown things - to how we have originated.

Religion doesn't even mention there being anything outside earth really. There are the 'supernatural dimenstions', earth and that's about it. Is this real? Well I can't answer that, but it certainly isn't the truth.

 

[ad infinitum]

Have you ever thought about the world before? It doesn't seem so, or maybe you did, but have just become comfortable in the rabbits fur.

I can assure you my understanding of philosophy, science, ontology and epistemology is far more sophisticated then your own.

First off, how did life originate? You cant just keep saying evolution, evolution, evolution, because something would have to evolve form something else.

Perhaps you should study Abiogenesis if you wish to learn how life originated...Evolution still stands as a logical response to your questions (how did life come to be? How did we come to be?).

There are theories, about how earth came ot have life, but these involve an organism on asteroids and stuff (forgive me if im wrong, but surely you see my point?)

?..No i don't see your point.

Also, the make up of the universe, the physics that govern it, the make up of atoms, why are they like they are? Could they be different? Why is any of this here at all? How did the whole universe come into being.

Note your mammalian brain is trying to find patterns, and assign meaning.

If there was no divine being than wouldn't everything have to be by chance, seeming there is nothing governing lives etc.

Our constructed laws of nature govern lives.

OR was there something that made all these events (such as matter forming, creating planets, life???!!)

There is nothing to suggest this (note you have retreated from the Theistic to the Deistic position). Also note that by proclaiming a God (which one!) you have explained nothing- (what made this god, how did this god zap into existence everything, how does this god control everything).

It is still an answer, and because there isnt a better one, it is still around today.

Yes there is. Atheism...(the position that there are no good reasons to believe in a God)

This thread has some ridiculously bias people posting, who'd give iron a run for his money in their stubbornness. Can't you open your mind and see 'why?', regarding religion?

Are you referring to yourself...Your arguements are that of someone who has thought very little of the issue/ read none of the arguements against your very childish, ill-informed view.

Its bad, bad, BAD!!!!... why? stop and think, the people who follow religion are not stupid (stay with me), they just get something out of it that we dont.

I didn't say it was 'bad' (which it is anyway) I said it was untrue (which is part of why it is 'bad'). I didn't say people who follow religion are stupid, they have been indoctrinated by their parents (who have in turn been indoctrinated by theirs) and are under a rather silly delusion.

None of what you say is well arcticulated, nor is it anything new, nor is it anything other that what typically dribbles from the lips of those that have no real understanding of the matter. Educated yourself before embarrassing yourself.

 

[Tangent]

Thankyou =D

 

[Aquawhite]

^ Calm down?

 

[Random_dude]

now, to reboost some anger, can any non-believer explain the origins of the original big bang?

in my honest opinion, god made the universe, and is just looking at the results. and evolution is on the surface random, but in the undercurrents organised. however, the chances of amniotic fluid forming an organised, structured protein again and again is rather amazing. also, look at THE idealic spot that earth has placed itself in, not too hot as to end up like venus, and not as cold as mars, it just happens to be just right. WTF!! it is like we are in goldilocks planet and then there is the moon. the moon is just the right size to do something which i can not remember (if anyone can tell me, please do). the chances of this planet even existing is pretty darn low. so if the universe is so random, well, we are the consistent royal flush of spades again and again in each game.

 

[ComingUpForAir]

now, to reboost some anger, can any non-believer explain the origins of the original big bang?

in my honest opinion, god made the universe, and is just looking at the results. and evolution is on the surface random, but in the undercurrents organised. however, the chances of amniotic fluid forming an organised, structured protein again and again is rather amazing. also, look at THE idealic spot that earth has placed itself in, not too hot as to end up like venus, and not as cold as mars, it just happens to be just right. WTF!! it is like we are in goldilocks planet and then there is the moon. the moon is just the right size to do something which i can not remember (if anyone can tell me, please do). the chances of this planet even existing is pretty darn low. so if the universe is so random, well, we are the consistent royal flush of spades again and again in each game.

deeply disturbing logic...
babyish, weak-minded people like you always miss the point about the human mind, i.e. it is an evolved organ, and thus cannot, and will not be able to grasp such unterestial concepts. It's capacity is defined via its evolved utilities.
Say 'Godz gone dunz startedz universezz' is a hollow, meaningless statement, and is continually put forward in debates, but this must stop, your not allowed to say this stuff, it's not worth saying or knowing, bad dog.
Obviosuly I could counter with "well then what created God, and what created that, ad infinitum..", but i suspect trying to point out these nuanced logical inconsistencies (which arise to the the nature of our mind) is a futile endevor with people of your caste. So i will simply say; bad! don't say your thoughts out loud! bad!

 

[Random_dude]

deeply disturbing logic...
babyish, weak-minded people like you always miss the point about the human mind, i.e. it is an evolved organ, and thus cannot, and will not be able to grasp such unterestial concepts. It's capacity is defined via its evolved utilities.
Say 'Godz gone dunz startedz universezz' is a hollow, meaningless statement, and is continually put forward in debates, but this must stop, your not allowed to say this stuff, it's not worth saying or knowing, bad dog.
Obviosuly I could counter with "well then what created God, and what created that, ad infinitum..", but i suspect trying to point out these nuanced logical inconsistencies (which arise to the the nature of our mind) is a futile endevor with people of your caste. So i will simply say; bad! don't say your thoughts out loud! bad!

bad dog, really, is that the best insult you got?

and god is used just like a full stop is, to end a particular line of thinking as our minds have completely no idea what is the origin of the universe, so god is used to stop our weak-minded brains from hurting.

and WTF is that godz gone dunz the universezz, i mean i know how our spelling is going down the toilet thanks to the HSC but really, BAD DOG!! why don't you go into a library, you know, l-i-b-r-a-r-y and learn how to spell. also, saying god created the universe and then left us creates a nice fence-sitting situation for randomists and people who wander about the level of freakin' coincidences to the supreme and the probability of all these factors even happening. even if it was a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 chance of one event happening, how the heck does it happen consecutively? that is exactly like having consecutive royal flushes out of a 520000 pack again and again in each game. so, go and read or else learn some science (it is s-c-i-e-n-c-e)and come back to me with a more valid explanation than god made the universe( see, u-n-i-v-e-r-s-e), and do not say another big bang. and if you say a black hole, a particle singularity, or some freakin' thesis that does not even make any sense , then come back to this thread because the factors of the make-up of the earth are too freakin' consecutively managing to exist whilst ignoring randomness. because destroying every other person's thesii is completely negligible unless you got one that is more valid than others'. so, where is your oh so great thesis? and it must includew s-c-i-e-n-t-i-f-i-c j-a-r-g-o-n(meaning t-e-c-h-n-o-l-o-g-i-c-a-l words) and reasons why. bewcause i have actually read on the subject whilst all you are doing is going around telling everyone that they are weak minded for saying it is god that did it. and what created god, chuck norris.

 

[ad infinitum]

bad dog, really, is that the best insult you got?

and god is used just like a full stop is, to end a particular line of thinking as our minds have completely no idea what is the origin of the universe, so god is used to stop our weak-minded brains from hurting.

and WTF is that godz gone dunz the universezz, i mean i know how our spelling is going down the toilet thanks to the HSC but really, BAD DOG!! why don't you go into a library, you know, l-i-b-r-a-r-y and learn how to spell. also, saying god created the universe and then left us creates a nice fence-sitting situation for randomists and people who wander about the level of freakin' coincidences to the supreme and the probability of all these factors even happening. even if it was a 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 chance of one event happening, how the heck does it happen consecutively? that is exactly like having consecutive royal flushes out of a 520000 pack again and again in each game. so, go and read or else learn some science (it is s-c-i-e-n-c-e)and come back to me with a more valid explanation than god made the universe( see, u-n-i-v-e-r-s-e), and do not say another big bang. and if you say a black hole, a particle singularity, or some freakin' thesis that does not even make any sense , then come back to this thread because the factors of the make-up of the earth are too freakin' consecutively managing to exist whilst ignoring randomness. because destroying every other person's thesii is completely negligible unless you got one that is more valid than others'. so, where is your oh so great thesis? and it must includew s-c-i-e-n-t-i-f-i-c j-a-r-g-o-n(meaning t-e-c-h-n-o-l-o-g-i-c-a-l words) and reasons why. bewcause i have actually read on the subject whilst all you are doing is going around telling everyone that they are weak minded for saying it is god that did it. and what created god, chuck norris.

wow u are really dumb hahahahahahh