Is it possible to be among the best without coaching? (2 Viewers)

[Absolutezero]

The question is what do you want for your daughter from education?

I think the other question is what does your daughter want from her education?

 

[Fus Ro Dah]

Well, what do you consider to be 'coaching'? Does receiving extra help from a teacher during recess/lunch count as coaching? Does Olympiad Training count as coaching? Does attending a Holiday Seminar constitute coaching? Hell, if I attend the BOS Study Day and the seminar, will that be considered coaching? The term 'coaching' is very broad and subjective.

But I do think it is possible to be the very best without coaching, like no one ever was.

 

[Thief]

Yes, you see this is an issue. If you turn down James Ruse, you know you cannot come back to a public selective school even if you want to. At least until year 10 anyway by sitting for a special entry test. A normal comprehensive HS is the thing that many parents and students don't want at the first place as teachers will cater mainly for average students. We make a choice to avoid the fierce competition in a top selective school. We land into an equally fierce competitive class of much smaller size.

What I see is that we cannot escape. Running away from tutored students only mean we land in another place full of tutored students. So my kid is hanging around mainly with untutored students who are more relaxed. But it won't surprise me that her untutored friends may also get some limited but very private tutoring by the very best teachers. Their parents have a lot of cash to burn if they need to. It is not easy to befriend heavily tutored students unless my child is extremely sociable and average in academic performance. Not that she likes to befriend grumpy workaholics, but it is hard because workaholics don't like those who don't work hard and share the suffering. So she wants to be with the relaxed students but at end of each year, she would want to get up and get awards like the workaholics. Top academic girls spy on scholarship status and rumour like crazy. Some of them are so rude as to ask "Are you on 100% scholarship?" That is really nasty because the only way to answer is to lie or to say "I don't want to talk about it". The school told parents to tell kids NOT to talk about it. You kind of make a nemesis for no reason.

Anyway, it feels like you win some and lose some regardless of what choice you make.

I feel you really have a cynical outlook on this whole situation - I currently attend a selective high school, but prior to that I was in a private school.

There was absolutely no tutoring going on there - of course, there would have been for the ocassional student who may have been struggling in a subject like maths or english, but there definitely wasn't any sort of tutoring to get ahead.

Also even at my current selective school, yes there is competitiveness to a degree, but the school is still full of friendly people. I don't get any sort of tuition, and I get along fine with all my friends who do, and I do alright in tests. I don't get top marks, but I get marks that make me happy, which is all that matters in my opinion.

As for "So she wants to be with the relaxed students but at end of each year, she would want to get up and get awards like the workaholics." - if she wants to get awards like the workaholics, then she needs to also put in the same amount of dedication and effort. There's no easy way to the top. Those students put in the effort, and reaped the benefits.

 

[oasfree]

Elite private schools? I really can't think of what schools you are referring to.

Also, if your child is in this group of 'prized' students, cant she just as easily drop out and return to a normal class with the rest of her cohort where such high expectations aren't placed on her?

Nope! That means being kicked out of school and back to the local HS. Cannot even get back to a selective school. Making a choice means we have to stick with it for a while. There is no doubt the teachers are good and the school is generally great. But there is no escape from being surrounded by extremely intelligent students who are also heavily tutored. You know like how people say "You cannot fight them, you join them". This is the bit we are really unwilling to do. All my nieces and nephews are also being heavily tutored! That does not help.

 

[Thief]

Nope! That means being kicked out of school and back to the local HS. Cannot even get back to a selective school. Making a choice means we have to stick with it for a while. There is no doubt the teachers are good and the school is generally great. But there is no escape from being surrounded by extremely intelligent students who are also heavily tutored. You know like how people say "You cannot fight them, you join them". This is the bit we are really unwilling to do. All my nieces and nephews are also being heavily tutored! That does not help.

Why can't you get back into a selective school? Many take in a couple of students each year through interviews, to make up for the numbers when inevitably a few kids drop out.
And of course some of them hold entrance exams for entry into yr11.

You could also apply for scholarships at another private school. I am sure there are many that aren't 'elite'.

 

[JennaJameson]

yes it is very much so

 

[oasfree]

I feel you really have a cynical outlook on this whole situation

It may appears like what you say but I am not cynical. You was in private school but probably not in a special group of mainly scholarship students? Don't know about your time but now this kind of groups in top private schools are almost 100% from Asian background. Also boy and co-ed schools are different. Even if boys compete, they are never catty or even make it obvious. When I was young, even though we openly competed against one another, I was one of the few who always helped competitors when they got problems.

I am talking about just the top group in a school. The rest are fine and they have more diverse interests in the arts and sports. The students are very nice to be with and that where my kid makes friends. But she has to return to her top academic group for classes.

 

[enoilgam]

I dont understand what the issue is. If your daughter has the work ethic and motivation (plus the natural aptitude) she will do well irrespective of all this coaching and what not. The question still stands though, what do you want from your daughters education and what does she want from it.

 

[tambam]

What you have said makes perfect sense in a public school and still make sense in pubic selective school. Even though students in the top selective schools may be under a lot of pressure from parents to stay at the top. In our case, we are quite relax but teachers (in elite private schools) are not. Imagine they put their "prized" students into a group and get them on a regime of ultra high expectation. The kids are TOLD to get ready to complete 2U math HSC by year 10, math ext1 by year 11, ext2 by year 12. They are told to be ready for minimum English ext1, etc. So at year 8, we are instructed to buy math textbook for year 8, 9 and 10.

Yes, they will invest a lot in students at year 11-12 to match top students in top selective schools (ATAR 99+). But I think between year 7-10 is more of swim or sink or get yourself a tutor. I am not sure if it makes any sense but it may make sense to say "If you can afford 25K/year fee, you can afford a tutor" or "If you already save up to 25k/year, surely you can afford a tutor". So my child is in a different situation when compared to students in the top selective schools. I suppose we just feel a bit unnerved because English is the most important subject and she will get out of the tight corner with a bit more dedication.

I think the pressure of being a scholarship recipient places you and your daughter in a difficult position, because if from such a young age all she's been taught is to focus on studies, in reality she is missing out on other non academic learning experiences which will add more value to who she is as an individual, beyond just an atar mark.

So if this is what her school expects of her, because really what they want from her is high academic results to boost their reputation, then maybe its not unreasonable to consider removing her from such an environment. There are a few opportunities for transfer into a selective school, which I think would be much more suited to your daughter, in terms of nurturing her academic ability whilst still encouraging her to lead a well balanced lifestyle.

 

[oasfree]

Why can't you get back into a selective school? Many take in a couple of students each year through interviews, to make up for the numbers when inevitably a few kids drop out.
And of course some of them hold entrance exams for entry into yr11.

You could also apply for scholarships at another private school. I am sure there are many that aren't 'elite'.

It's more complicated. The process for selective entry from year 8-10 is complicated and subjective. Scholarships are mainly offered at year 7. Only low performing private schools offer scholarships at year 10-12 to try to snatch a few good students. And the way it looks, you get same problem any where. Running away is not the answer. Coping with it and try to make the best of the positive things at the place is safer.

 

[Thief]

It may appears like what you say but I am not cynical. You was in private school but probably not in a special group of mainly scholarship students? Don't know about your time but now this kind of groups in top private schools are almost 100% from Asian background. Also boy and co-ed schools are different. Even if boys compete, they are never catty or even make it obvious. When I was young, even though we openly competed against one another, I was one of the few who always helped competitors when they got problems.

I am talking about just the top group in a school. The rest are fine and they have more diverse interests in the arts and sports. The students are very nice to be with and that where my kid makes friends. But she has to return to her top academic group for classes.

Hahaha oh dear. Yes, I was on a 100% scholarship, yes two of my friends were on half scholarships. Half of my group was asian (pretty much the only asians in the grade). There was no 'special group of scholarship students' in my cohort - the people I sat with ranged in their abilities, right from the bottom maths/english group to the top/extension ones.

But I guess I'm starting to see where you're coming from.. but maybe I might suggest finding a small, private school because I assure you that not all schools are like what you describe.

 

[oasfree]

I think the pressure of being a scholarship recipient places you and your daughter in a difficult position, because if from such a young age all she's been taught is to focus on studies, in reality she is missing out on other non academic learning experiences which will add more value to who she is as an individual, beyond just an atar mark.

So if this is what her school expects of her, because really what they want from her is high academic results to boost their reputation, then maybe its not unreasonable to consider removing her from such an environment. There are a few opportunities for transfer into a selective school, which I think would be much more suited to your daughter, in terms of nurturing her academic ability whilst still encouraging her to lead a well balanced lifestyle.

That is what I pointed out. But they want more, not just academic result. They have a difference idea of balance. The balance they want is ultra high performance in academic, music and sport. Failing that they want ultra high academic and good performance in music and reasonable performance in sport. You know how even public Universities explicitly ask for superior academic students to enrol into their top degrees? Do we really have a better balance in selective schools? I am afraid it is even more competitive in the top selective schools in Sydney. Clearly there is pressure but we are trying to make the best of it and hope we don't have to change out way (i.e. use tutoring).

BTW, it's a dilema the teachers have. They cannot teach at the level of the top students because 90% of the students pay top $ to be there but they cannot cope. So the teachers teach at level 6 months to 1 year lower than what the top students are at. But they have to give hard exams at the level of the top students. I think this is one of the main reasons why tutored students are so hard to match up with.

 

[Thief]

That is what I pointed out. But they want more, not just academic result. They have a difference idea of balance. The balance they want is ultra high performance in academic, music and sport. Failing that they want ultra high academic and good performance in music and reasonable performance in sport. You know how even public Universities explicitly ask for superior academic students to enrol into their top degrees? Do we really have a better balance in selective schools? I am afraid it is even more competitive in the top selective schools in Sydney. Clearly there is pressure but we are trying to make the best of it and hope we don't have to change out way (i.e. use tutoring).

BTW, it's a dilema the teachers have. They cannot teach at the level of the top students because 90% of the students pay top $ to be there but they cannot cope. So the teachers teach at level 6 months to 1 year lower than what the top students are at. But they have to give hard exams at the level of the top students. I think this is one of the main reasons why tutored students are so hard to match up with.

But why do you have to succumb to this pressure? Can't you and your daughter be content with her achieving what she believes is the best that she can achieve? At a selective school you dont have to be within that top 10-20 group of very diligent, hardworking students.

 

[enoilgam]

You're over thinking things too much and you are worried too much about what "others" are doing. When I did my HSC, I wasnt worried about what Ruse kids were doing and how heavily coached they were. I was worried about me and what I was doing to better myself.

Also, you seem to be making out that your daughter is stuck in a hopeless situation surrounded by super tutored kids and that her educational opportunities are minimal. As someone who has been through the NSW school system in recent times, you're being paranoid over nothing.

 

[oasfree]

You're over thinking things too much and you are worried too much about what "others" are doing. When I did my HSC, I wasnt worried about what Ruse kids were doing and how heavily coached they were. I was worried about me and what I was doing to better myself.

Also, you seem to be making out that your daughter is stuck in a hopeless situation surrounded by super tutored kids and that her educational opportunities are minimal. As someone who has been through the NSW school system in recent times, you're being paranoid over nothing.

No, I am not paranoid. I just feel that (and people told me) it is difficult to have a balance. Every one I know keeps telling me that you cannot beat them you must join them. Certain the situation is not hopeless. It is more about the pressure of scholarship. If you are in public schools, no one care if you cannot stay at the top. In private system, if your parents pay 25K/year and more for other fees you would feel a ton of pressure. If you are getting a scholarship, you worry about the shame of being called up and told to pull the socks up. It's about a sense of vulnerability.

 

[oasfree]

But why do you have to succumb to this pressure? Can't you and your daughter be content with her achieving what she believes is the best that she can achieve? At a selective school you dont have to be within that top 10-20 group of very diligent, hardworking students.

As explained before, the pressure is there regardless what we do. When you get a scholarship or when you pay 25K/year plus, you are pressured. Contentment is one thing and coping with pressure is another. You are on a race-horse's back, you cannot just jump down. It is about trying to make the best of it and achieve some balance.

 

[iSplicer]

Thats something she has to do on her own - motivation comes from within and its very much on the person to decide whether they will take action or not. You wont be able to hand hold her forever.

+1.

You can only show her the door!

 

[iSplicer]

As explained before, the pressure is there regardless what we do. When you get a scholarship or when you pay 25K/year plus, you are pressured. Contentment is one thing and coping with pressure is another. You are on a race-horse's back, you cannot just jump down. It is about trying to make the best of it and achieve some balance.

But my honest advice: tutoring is definitely not necessary, if there's a fire within the student's heart no obstacle will be able to stop them. But it really, really helps. I went to maths tutoring since Year 8 (nothing else, I still took y 7 -10 really easy, was just an average student at BHHS) and it was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Just being in that environment, exposed to that sub-culture, provided me with a lot of soul that was required later on in my schooling life. I went to a college (Ngo and Sons, where we were all treated like a big family rather than a tutoring college), but you should consider finding your daughter a mentor that she can use as a role model during these early days where picking up proper ideals of work ethic are absolutely essential.

Also, please let her have fun. It's year 8, you're MEANT to fool around 3-4 hours a day on facebook/gaming.

 

[iSplicer]

You're over thinking things too much and you are worried too much about what "others" are doing. When I did my HSC, I wasnt worried about what Ruse kids were doing and how heavily coached they were. I was worried about me and what I was doing to better myself.

Also, you seem to be making out that your daughter is stuck in a hopeless situation surrounded by super tutored kids and that her educational opportunities are minimal. As someone who has been through the NSW school system in recent times, you're being paranoid over nothing.

You have no right to make such an assertion. Perhaps they both are aiming for an ATAR well into the 99's, in which case making a general plan of approach is a good idea at a young age. They don't seem to be over-thinking anything, their concerns are rather valid, just as valid as your point of view where you weren't affected by any of this (which is also fine).

 

[iSplicer]

But why do you have to succumb to this pressure? Can't you and your daughter be content with her achieving what she believes is the best that she can achieve? At a selective school you dont have to be within that top 10-20 group of very diligent, hardworking students.

You don't *HAVE* to be anything. You don't even *HAVE* to go to school. It all depends on what they are aiming for and what they consider is a suitable goal (whether it's 75 ATAR or 99.95 ATAR - both are equally valid). If they're aiming for 99.95, then yes, you do *HAVE* to be within that top group.