Are there no jobs for lawyers (4 Viewers)

[neo o]

Politics.

I was hoping to do a stint as a lawyer then move into politics.

Possibly do something related to human rights, a diplomat/ambassador.

You're essentially aiming for a single employer job i.e. working for DFAT when you graduate. I don't like being THAT guy but I think your goals are unrealistic. You can still aim for that, but I would suggest looking at a broader pathway which gives you fall back options. An economics/arts degree with a language or two and a few history/IR courses would set you up for teaching, public policy roles in government, other APS/state government jobs, DFAT if you do really well consulting jobs etc. To have as much of a chance as possible in the job market, graduates have to do their best to avoid specialisation to keep their options open.

 

[Orwell]

It says in your signature that you were an ex-solicitor? Mind telling me what you moved on with?

I really enjoy economics in school right now and I'm pretty good at it, however, I hate mathematics.

 

[enoilgam]

Doing a 5 year degree means you sacrifice 2 years of earnings + additional HECS costs + GDLP cost if you don't land a graduate job that subsidises your qualification

Couldnt agree more with this - I dropped out of law and managed to finish my commerce degree in three years. Hands down the best thing I ever did. In the two years I spent working instead of being at uni, I managed to get a property and pay off a decent hunk of it. I see a few of my mates in law and honestly I dont envy them. They pull like 50-60 hours weeks, work weekends etc. Meanwhile Im cruising a 35 hour week in government earning 30% more.

If you are doing law for the money or prestige, there are far better options. Only do it if the passion is there.

 

[Orwell]

Couldnt agree more with this - I dropped out of law and managed to finish my commerce degree in three years. Hands down the best thing I ever did. In the two years I spent working instead of being at uni, I managed to get a property and pay off a decent hunk of it. I see a few of my mates in law and honestly I dont envy them. They pull like 50-60 hours weeks, work weekends etc. Meanwhile Im cruising a 35 hour week in government earning 30% more.

If you are doing law for the money or prestige, there are far better options. Only do it if the passion is there.

There's a really strong passion for law underlying my decision.

Mind me asking what you do for work?

I'm freaking out right now. Law's all I've ever considered and all I've ever known. It's still possible to do it for a bit in uni and re-consider and make changes? I'm just so confused.

Edit: I envy your mates because I don't mind working weekends or long-hours because there's a passion that drives me. My only real fear is that there's no work and no jobs and I'm going to have to work in a completely unrelated field doing shit I don't enjoy.

 

[enoilgam]

There's a really strong passion for law underlying my decision.

Mind me asking what you do for work?

I'm freaking out right now. Law's all I've ever considered and all I've ever known. It's still possible to do it for a bit in uni and re-consider and make changes? I'm just so confused.

If you love it then do it, you've just got to work hard at it. Like, one of my mates works like a dog but he loves law and has wanted to do it his whole life (he works at a mid-tier). It was wrong for me because I didnt really care for it, I did it for the money.

Im a public servant, I mainly specialise in HR and in particular projects and policy. Right now Im working on a major infrastructure programme and prior to that I worked on disability reform.

 

[neo o]

There's a really strong passion for law underlying my decision.

Mind me asking what you do for work?

I'm freaking out right now. Law's all I've ever considered and all I've ever known. It's still possible to do it for a bit in uni and re-consider and make changes? I'm just so confused.

Edit: I envy your mates because I don't mind working weekends or long-hours because there's a passion that drives me. My only real fear is that there's no work and no jobs and I'm going to have to work in a completely unrelated field doing shit I don't enjoy.

I think you need to think things through a little more. I don't think too many people find themselves graduating with the exact job they wanted when they were 18. That isn't necessarily a bad thing either - people discover new things: new talents, new interests and new options. Since the OP is interested in human rights and social justice stuff, maybe you could go in to a little more detail about the kind of stuff you're doing in the APS enoilgam? It sounds like something that fits his interests that he may not have thought of.

To answer your earlier question, I started in government, but it wasn't challenging enough so I moved to private. The work culture in private was terrible, the people were awful, and to be honest, while the barristers I was briefing were good mentors, the firm I landed at wasn't supportive and people weren't very bright. When I was 18 and starting law I had this idea that I could be a self sufficient sole practitioner or a barrister, but I wasn't a good fit with the industry. I did recruitment for a while and now I'm an accountant and much happier - ironically in a role where my law degree is helpful too.

 

[neo o]

I mean, there are so many areas in government where you could do interesting work that aligns with your interests - the performance arms of the state and Commonwealth audit office assess the performance of government policy, the productivity commission looks at reform, the state and Commonwealth health and human services department look at program delivery and health and social services reform....

What I think you need to realise (and most 18 year olds don't realise this) is that you have far more options than you think you do.

 

[Orwell]

Yeah, it seems I might need to look into it.

As long as it sort of aligns with my interest, I'd be happy but I just don't want an occupation that's too mathematically dense.

I actually considered accounting/banking, but for the aforementioned reason, I was quick to turn it down.

 

[enoilgam]

Since the OP is interested in human rights and social justice stuff, maybe you could go in to a little more detail about the kind of stuff you're doing in the APS enoilgam? It sounds like something that fits his interests that he may not have thought of.

Im with the APS at the moment, Im mainly responsible for handling HR for a multi billion dollar infrastructure programme. I also work on the people governance and compliance side of things. So an average day for me is like standard HR (recruitment, L&D etc) mixed in with workforce planning, reporting and miscellaneous projects. When I was with the state government, I provided a range of HR, change and project services for a disability reform project. That involved stuff like briefing and supporting stakeholders, developing policies for the transition, managing reporting and analytics etc.

Sorry if that's a bit vague, generally on BoS I dont go into too much detail on where I work namely because most of the projects I worked on have been high profile and sensitive (Im trying my hardest not to sound like a douchebag here). Also, it allows me to give advice and discuss my experiences without it being tied to closely to my work.

Back on point though, you are right in what you're saying about options. I was fortunate enough to work with a large organisation during uni and I was shocked at all the different roles I had never heard of before. When your at uni, you only really consider the basic areas of business like accounting, marketing, finance, HR etc. You arent exposed to the breadth of roles that are really out there.

 

[neo o]

Yeah, it seems I might need to look into it.

As long as it sort of aligns with my interest, I'd be happy but I just don't want an occupation that's too mathematically dense.

I actually considered accounting/banking, but for the aforementioned reason, I was quick to turn it down.

You're thinking in terms of strict pathways again. Accounting, banking or law. Don't do that Personally I think law is too restrictive, and you'll be better off pursuing a more generalist double degree that gives you flexibility when you graduate - and most of the stuff that you're interested in will still be open to you without a law degree.

It's funny actually, in my very first law tutorial we were asked where we wanted to be when we graduated, most people wanted to be in a human rights related area (it's an ANU meme), I said that I was going to be a corporate lawyer. When I met up with some of those guys a few years ago, we got talking, and most of the human rights types were practising in corporate law and hating it, I got what I wanted and wasn't happy, and the only guy who was really happy with the path his career took actually dropped law and was working as a union organiser.

There are more options open to you right now than you realise, work on developing yourself (learn a language, pick up some skills, get some general work experience!) and go from there.

 

[Orwell]

Are you suggesting I don't complete a law degree or are you suggesting I espouse law with something else for the sake of broadening my horizons?

Either way dude, you've got me thinking and I can be very prudent with how I approach my future. Thanks for this.

 

[enoilgam]

Are you suggesting I don't complete a law degree or are you suggesting I espouse law with something else for the sake of broadening my horizons?

Either way dude, you've got me thinking and I can be very prudent with how I approach my future. Thanks for this.

I think what he is trying to say is keep your options open. From my perspective, you should approach uni with an open mind and try to get as much experiences under your belt as possible. Then you will be in a better position to decide what you want to do.

When thinking about a career, you need to think first about what interests you, what you value and how you work. Do you want a good work/life balance?, are you a person who thrives on structure? etc. From there, that should help you better evaluate career options.

 

[neo o]

Are you suggesting I don't complete a law degree or are you suggesting I espouse law with something else for the sake of broadening my horizons?

Either way dude, you've got me thinking and I can be very prudent with how I approach my future. Thanks for this.

Look, I'm very bearish on law because I had a bad experience. It's not my place to tell you not to do something, but I do think you can achieve what you want now and open yourself up to other options you haven't thought of by doing something more generalist. Think about your general interests, look at the actual courses that are offered within degree programs, and get some work experience and work on improving yourself by learning a language, volunteering etc.

I also recommend talking to these guys: http://www.cla.asn.au/News/

They do a lot of work in the civil liberties space reviewing and commenting on proposed legislation. I did a project on civil rights in the APAC region with them as an intern, and they like keen, bright students who want to get involved in their projects. I think it'd be your kind of thing

 

[Orwell]

Yeah, I think you're right.

However, by work experience, I don't exactly know what you mean?

 

[neo o]

Yeah, I think you're right.

However, by work experience, I don't exactly know what you mean?

Assistant at a law firm etc. Additionally look at volunteering opportunities with groups like Civil Liberties Australia etc.

 

[strawberrye]

I want to enter the law field (I understand there's a lot of monetary incentive but I'm genuinely passionate to practice law), but there's a real threat that there's no jobs for lawyers. I know I'm not entering law for money but I mean... $$$. I just want to live comfortably and I thought grinding out hours of study, working a lot, etc... would be a means of achieving that.

My business teacher was talking about how teaching would be a better option. There's a demand for good teachers, they make more money out of university than law graduates, they don't work as much, there's more options for them to make money (tutoring, HSC marking, etc...) I like the idea of teaching, but I had my heart set on being a lawyer and would rather do that.

I also kinda wanted to do Commerce/Law. Anyone got any ideas or advice for me?

You can always do a masters of teaching after your law degree if you ever changed your mind, life is not a one sided path, just because you graduate with a law degree doesn't mean you can't do further studies and pursue other interests, from my experience, teachers who previously had other occupations tends to be the better teachers because they enrich the student's knowledge and experience with knowledge from other fields.

 

[clementinez]

You're thinking in terms of strict pathways again. Accounting, banking or law. Don't do that Personally I think law is too restrictive, and you'll be better off pursuing a more generalist double degree that gives you flexibility when you graduate - and most of the stuff that you're interested in will still be open to you without a law degree.

It's funny actually, in my very first law tutorial we were asked where we wanted to be when we graduated, most people wanted to be in a human rights related area (it's an ANU meme), I said that I was going to be a corporate lawyer. When I met up with some of those guys a few years ago, we got talking, and most of the human rights types were practising in corporate law and hating it, I got what I wanted and wasn't happy, and the only guy who was really happy with the path his career took actually dropped law and was working as a union organiser.

There are more options open to you right now than you realise, work on developing yourself (learn a language, pick up some skills, get some general work experience!) and go from there.

This seems to be an recurring pattern but it's not because law is a miserable field but rather that students going into law don't understand what studying and practicing law is about.
You don't need a law degree to work in government or policy, you need a law degree strictly to practice as a lawyer. This means applying specific sets of laws to specific cases. The course is nothing like legal studies and the required mindset is analytical. Law can get draining and and boring (if you're not interested in the field). It's also a very wide field so you have to pick what you want to specialise in.

OP, the question you should be asking yourself is what do you want your role to be when it comes to social justice and human rights? Do you want to offer legal advice/go to court, or do you want to handle development projects, humanitarian aid, join lobby groups, represent disadvantaged communities in government etc. Law will have you looking at legal documents most of the time unless you sway away from the practice and use the degree as replacement for a social science major.

 

[Orwell]

Thing is, it's not as if my liking for teaching comes to close to my love for law; it's not a neck and neck thing, law is what I really want to do.

I really don't understand what the best thing to espouse law with is (I'm going to try and do law because I really want the option to practice it). Any sort of double degrees you suggest I look up?

 

[neo o]

This seems to be an reoccurring pattern but it's not because law is a miserable field.... you need a law degree strictly to practice as a lawyer. This means applying specific sets of laws to specific cases.

Oh my sweet summer child.

 

[Orwell]

I'm looking at the degrees offered at universities, and I can't major in international law while doing Commerce. I think this whole double degree thing has me stressing out.