Israel Palestine conflict (4 Viewers)

[totally_screwed]

@SylviaB

TikTok

vm.tiktok.com

he's an idiot, keeps tying the issue with Islam but from the start of this thread people have been emphasising that it has remotely nothing to do with religion, it has everything to do with ethnic cleansing, colonialism and apartheid.

homophobia and gay rights has to be the most irrelevant topic to bring up. I literally saw lgbt representatives participating in the protest yesterday, the rainbows were hard to miss, so essentially the people that sylvia is defending so much aren't even on the same side as him.

talk about embarrassing

 

[stressedadfff]

he's an idiot, keeps tying the issue with Islam but from the start of this thread people have been emphasising that it has remotely nothing to do with religion, it has everything to do with ethnic cleansing, colonialism and apartheid.

homophobia and gay rights has to be the most irrelevant topic to bring up. I literally saw lgbt representatives participating in the protest yesterday, the rainbows were hard to miss, so essentially the people that sylvia is defending so much aren't even on the same side as him.

talk about embarrassing

Yikessssss

 

[nilatar]

he's an idiot, keeps tying the issue with Islam but from the start of this thread people have been emphasising that it has remotely nothing to do with religion, it has everything to do with ethnic cleansing, colonialism and apartheid.

homophobia and gay rights has to be the most irrelevant topic to bring up. I literally saw lgbt representatives participating in the protest yesterday, the rainbows were hard to miss, so essentially the people that sylvia is defending so much aren't even on the same side as him.

talk about embarrassing

SylviaB is one diversion dam... Once again, only eejits skew political discussions into ones regarding religion...

 

[nilatar]

This thread was actually seeing quality & civilized discussion until SylviaB rolled in.
That's exactly why I said...

Don't...

 

[dan964]

Secularise the conversation.
It has nothing to do with religion, once again.

SylviaB is one diversion dam... Once again, only eejits skew political discussions into ones regarding religion...

I would disagree with this on the premise that Zionist ideology is inherently religious even if it doesn't represent all those who hold to Judaism.

Yes, it is mainly politically and racially driven, but it is completely naïve (and false) to say this conflict has nothing to do with religion.

It is no coincidence that the attacks in Gaza that were initiated from the Israeli side, occurred on a religious festival for Muslims.

This is a centuries old conflict, Jewish people are still feeling hurt and animosity for Muslim/Arab's siege of Jerusalem and takeover on the Levant in the 6th Century (and also the 14th Century). And Muslims are still feeling hurt from the retaliation from Jews (& Christians/the West in the crusades). The conflict is quite complex and has a complex history and therefore it is not that straightforward to say who is in the right / wrong in a general sense
(obviously individual actions can be judged and should be rightly condemned).

Ironically, and this is where religion is not the major factor, Palestinians are a mix of Christians* and Muslims (and I would assume non-religious as well); and Israelis are a mix of Jews and atheists (as well as Christians and Muslims albeit in small proportions).

*by Christian, I am including Catholics in that descriptor.

(edits in blue)

 

[stressedadfff]

I would disagree with this on the premise that Zionist ideology is inherently religious even if it doesn't represent all those who hold to Judaism.

Yes, it is mainly politically and racially driven, but it is completely naïve (and false) to say this conflict has nothing to do with religion.

It is no coincidence that the attacks in Gaza that were initiated from the Israeli side, occurred on a religious festival for Muslims.

This is a centuries old conflict, Jewish people are still feeling hurt and animosity for Muslim/Arab's siege of Jerusalem and takeover on the Levant in the 6th Century (and also the 14th Century). And Muslims are still feeling hurt from the retaliation from Jews (& Christians/the West in the crusades). The conflict is quite complex and has a complex history and therefore it is not that straightforward to say who is in the right / wrong in a general sense
(obviously individual actions can be judged and should be rightly condemned).

Ironically, and this is where religion is not the major factor, Palestinians are a mix of Christians* and Muslims (and I would assume non-religious as well); and Israelis are a mix of Jews and atheists (as well as Christians and Muslims albeit in small proportions).

*by Christian, I am including Catholics in that descriptor.

(edits in blue)

I agree that it’s religiously motivated, hence killing countless children on EID but I disagree that’s it’s complex. What’s so complex about a literal genocide that is going on. One side has the strongest military and weapons whilst the other side has god. If it was truly there god given land I do think they would’ve conquered it 70 years ago. Somethings not adding up.

 

[stressedadfff]

I would disagree with this on the premise that Zionist ideology is inherently religious even if it doesn't represent all those who hold to Judaism.

Yes, it is mainly politically and racially driven, but it is completely naïve (and false) to say this conflict has nothing to do with religion.

It is no coincidence that the attacks in Gaza that were initiated from the Israeli side, occurred on a religious festival for Muslims.

This is a centuries old conflict, Jewish people are still feeling hurt and animosity for Muslim/Arab's siege of Jerusalem and takeover on the Levant in the 6th Century (and also the 14th Century). And Muslims are still feeling hurt from the retaliation from Jews (& Christians/the West in the crusades). The conflict is quite complex and has a complex history and therefore it is not that straightforward to say who is in the right / wrong in a general sense
(obviously individual actions can be judged and should be rightly condemned).

Ironically, and this is where religion is not the major factor, Palestinians are a mix of Christians* and Muslims (and I would assume non-religious as well); and Israelis are a mix of Jews and atheists (as well as Christians and Muslims albeit in small proportions).

*by Christian, I am including Catholics in that descriptor.

(edits in blue)

Also I’d like to note that I know majority western/Christian countries (evangelical christians particularly) are supporting Israel on a religious base. They believe it’s important to fulfill the ‘end times prophecy’ which includes giving Al Quds to Jews. Humanity’s not even in question.

 

[jimmysmith560]

Also I’d like to note that I know majority western/Christian countries (evangelical christians particularly) are supporting Israel on a religious base. They believe it’s important to fulfill the ‘end times prophecy’ which includes giving Al Quds to Jews. Humanity’s not even in question.

That's more of a political thing and the way people are informed of particular events and sides.

I'm Christian and oppose Israel.

 

[stressedadfff]

That's more of a political thing and the way people are informed of particular events and sides.

I'm Christian and oppose Israel.

Yh ofc but I know majority of my relatives that are evangelical (say they aren’t Zionist) support it’s occupation on that basis -also very uneducated tho

 

[jimmysmith560]

Yh ofc but I know majority of my relatives that are evangelical (say they aren’t Zionist) support it’s occupation on that basis -also very uneducated tho

I suppose that means they support what you've mentioned earlier, minus the establishment of Greater Israel.

Regardless, such perspectives are wrong and should be rectified.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is unrelated, but you mentioned at some point that you wanted to revert to Islam and now you've mentioned that you have Evangelical Christian relatives. I'm just curious as to how what made you decide to become Muslim, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[stressedadfff]

I suppose that means they support what you've mentioned earlier, minus the establishment of Greater Israel.

Regardless, such perspectives are wrong and should be rectified.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is unrelated, but you mentioned at some point that you wanted to revert to Islam and now you've mentioned that you have Evangelical Christian relatives. I'm just curious as to how what made you decide to become Muslim, if you don't mind me asking?

Lol I have heaps of Muslim people I know of and I really am interested in religion but Islam is the only one resonating for me and like logical- not worshipping a being, and everything about it fascinates me. It’s still a thought, but in my heart yes I am!

 

[jimmysmith560]

Lol I have heaps of Muslim people I know of and I really am interested in religion but Islam is the only one resonating for me and like logical- not worshipping a being, and everything about it fascinates me. It’s still a thought, but in my heart yes I am!

Thanks for the info! All the best!

 

[queenb_3]

Lol I have heaps of Muslim people I know of and I really am interested in religion but Islam is the only one resonating for me and like logical- not worshipping a being, and everything about it fascinates me. It’s still a thought, but in my heart yes I am!

Omg for real?? I thought you were joking initially! But Masha'Allah I'm so happy for you, I wish you all the best, and may this journey be a beautiful one! If you have any questions, let me know : )

 

[nilatar]

I would disagree with this on the premise that Zionist ideology is inherently religious even if it doesn't represent all those who hold to Judaism.

Yes, it is mainly politically and racially driven, but it is completely naïve (and false) to say this conflict has nothing to do with religion.

It is no coincidence that the attacks in Gaza that were initiated from the Israeli side, occurred on a religious festival for Muslims.

This is a centuries old conflict, Jewish people are still feeling hurt and animosity for Muslim/Arab's siege of Jerusalem and takeover on the Levant in the 6th Century (and also the 14th Century). And Muslims are still feeling hurt from the retaliation from Jews (& Christians/the West in the crusades). The conflict is quite complex and has a complex history and therefore it is not that straightforward to say who is in the right / wrong in a general sense
(obviously individual actions can be judged and should be rightly condemned).

Ironically, and this is where religion is not the major factor, Palestinians are a mix of Christians* and Muslims (and I would assume non-religious as well); and Israelis are a mix of Jews and atheists (as well as Christians and Muslims albeit in small proportions).

*by Christian, I am including Catholics in that descriptor.

(edits in blue)

My point is that this current conflict is not a battle between religions, but political hostilities that, yes, inevitably has religious roots (like most political issues do). The most pragmatic fashion in which should discuss these dilemmas is looking at it from a political perspective, to avoid morphing the discussion into rants critiquing religious traditions and their customs, like SylviaB embarked on.

You're right, this conflict doesn't have nothing to do with religion, but we need to retain in mind that it isn't a battle between religions.

 

[dan964]

I agree that it’s religiously motivated, hence killing countless children on EID but I disagree that’s it’s complex. What’s so complex about a literal genocide that is going on. One side has the strongest military and weapons whilst the other side has god. If it was truly there god given land I do think they would’ve conquered it 70 years ago. Somethings not adding up.

My point is that this current conflict is not a battle between religions, but political hostilities that, yes, inevitably has religious roots (like most political issues do). The most pragmatic fashion in which should discuss these dilemmas is looking at it from a political perspective, to avoid morphing the discussion into rants critiquing religious traditions and their customs, like SylviaB embarked on.

You're right, this conflict doesn't have nothing to do with religion, but we need to retain in mind that it isn't a battle between religions.

Don't hear me as not condemning the attacks, I'm also not condoning the retaliation either by the other side. Nor sure which side you are referring to as having God and the other having the strongest military. Overall, I personally don't think either side has God on their side.

[Technically] I'm an evangelical myself, but I don't support Israel politically (nor Palestine for that matter), and have actually been to both Israel and the West Bank. (Some Christians, mainly dispensationalists from the US support Israel as they see prophecy filled in 'literal Israel' for the same reason that Christians voted for Trump - I would argue they misunderstand prophecy)

I do not agree that all political issues have religious roots but broadly ideological roots (which includes those religious motivated conflicts; but also secular/non-religious/atheistic ideaologies such as marxism or fascism).

The conflict is mainly political, religious tensions only play into the conflict, particular between Jews and Muslims. I do not agree that most issues have religious roots. This conflict does, and that is because the Jewish identity is wrapped up with a particular homeland. Especially Judaism and Islam in particular are socio-political religions (whereby the religion encompasses politics), where by certain readings of their text lead to the justification of military conquests. This conflict is mostly rooted in nationalistic movements (Zionism and Arab/Syrian nationalism).
with both movements having a distinct ethic and religious identities forming the key distinctives.

Since the first conflicts in the 1920s, there has just been increasing hostilities. Even reading on what lead to the current conflict, was itself one thing leading to another.

 

[jimmysmith560]

Nor sure which side you are referring to as having God and the other having the strongest military.

Having God --> Palestine (It is quite common to say that "I only have God" when you find yourself in a situation with no support of any kind whatsoever).

Having the stronger military --> Israel (obviously).

This conflict is mostly rooted in nationalistic movements (Zionism and Arab/Syrian nationalism).

Regarding Syria, one of the main reasons we are against Israel is because they occupy the Golan Heights, which is Syrian territory. The condition for the establishment of diplomatic relations with Israel is very clear --> withdraw all Israeli forces from the Golan Heights.

 

[nilatar]

A simplified debunking of the 'it's a religious conflict' belief:

Myth #2: The conflict is all about religion It is true that Israelis are mostly Jewish and Palestinians are mostly Muslim, but religion is pretty low on the list of direct drivers of the conflict. This is not, despite what your grade school teacher may have suggested, a clash between Judaism and Islam over religious differences. It's a clash between nationalities — Israeli and Palestinian — over secular issues of land and nationhood. The European Jews who first encouraged and organized mass Jewish migration to what we now call Israel, in the late 1800s and early 1900s, were mostly secular Jews. Their movement, Zionism, treated Jews primarily as a nationality — like the French or Chinese — in addition to a religious group. While a number of Israelis are religiously observant, especially on the political right, the larger movement that created Israel was and remains primarily secular. Initial Palestinian armed movements were largely secular, as well. They were not, despite common misconceptions, Islamic extremists; they were Palestinian nationalists not unlike the Irish Republican Army were Irish nationalists. Some early groups were even officially communist. It is true that more recent groups such as Hamas, which formed in 1987, espouse Islamism. But beneath their language of jihad is, in significant part, the same nationalist drive of previous groups. There is one aspect of the conflict with a more overt religious dimension: Jerusalem. The long-divided city has, in its ancient center, Islam's third holiest site (the al-Aqsa mosque compound) located physically on top of the much older Temple Mount, the Western Wall of which is Judaism's holiest site. That means both Israelis and Palestinians want access to the same area for religious reasons. (There is a similar, smaller dispute over the West Bank city of Hebron.) But the dispute over Jerusalem is, in practice, still experienced more as a political than a religious issue. (Max Fisher)

Hence why religion should seldom be mentioned throughout these discussions and it should be viewed from a political perspective.

 

[totally_screwed]

Nor sure which side you are referring to as having God and the other having the strongest military. Overall, I personally do think either side has God on their side.

lol this is so ridiculous

 

[jimmysmith560]

It is true that more recent groups such as Hamas, which formed in 1987, espouse Islamism.

The problem with Hamas is that they share the same ideology as that of the Muslim Brotherhood (which is extremist) and (unsurprisingly), Hamas is actually affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood.

This is also one of the reasons I oppose both sides politically (as I mentioned in my earlier posts). Regarding the Palestinians, it's more about extremism vs secularism (Hamas vs Syria).

 

[dan964]

lol this is so ridiculous

*don't.
I have a problem where I often make this kind of typo. Where I mean one thing but forget to put it in the negative when I type it. I've edited it to fix this typo. What I meant to say is that I don't think either side has God on their side. I've amended the original post.