Does God exist? (14 Viewers)

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

I see the "problem" personally as being the fact that your life could be ended at anytime...the actual state of being dead isn't a problem because you'll never know on account of being dead, but knowing that you could potentially go at any moment is for me what constitutes fear of death, I don't know how else to put it. Just that if you told me I was going to die on [date] I'd be more okay with it than the idea that I could die any time between [date] and [date]. Uncertainty, maybe? Idk.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Depends when the expiry date is. But if I could have a guaranteed 50 more years from now, even though life expectancies are now longer, I'd probably take it because I'd be sure to get the best years.

True. I'd rather 50 guaranteed years than the potential to live to 90 but get hit by a train tomorrow.

 

[Enteebee]

I see the "problem" personally as being the fact that your life could be ended at anytime...the actual state of being dead isn't a problem because you'll never know on account of being dead, but knowing that you could potentially go at any moment is for me what constitutes fear of death, I don't know how else to put it. Just that if you told me I was going to die on [date] I'd be more okay with it than the idea that I could die any time between [date] and [date]. Uncertainty, maybe? Idk.

I don't think you'd be ok with it as the date got closer.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

I don't think you'd be ok with it as the date got closer.

Probably not, tbh. I'd just rather know when I was going to die for certain than know I was going to die soon but not know when or how.

Not to say that I walk around in constant fear of dying, just that it's always a thought that's there somewhere, that you could quite literally drop dead tomorrow...the fact that it's unlikely given that you've survived for 20 years already doesn't change the fact that 20 years might be all you get. Tbh I don't really think about it unless something makes me, like this thread or the car I nearly hit last week, etc.

 

[Kwayera]

I am being honest when I tell you I am not afraid of death. Whether that makes me psychotic or mad or simply strange, I don't know, but I am not afraid of it.

Telling me I should be afraid of it, and trying to justify those with "oh you actually ARE afraid of it, you just don't know it" smacks strongly of what this entire thread is about.

Just because I am not afraid of death, doesn't make my life awful or miserable or any less meaningful.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

I am being honest when I tell you I am not afraid of death. Whether that makes me psychotic or mad or simply strange, I don't know, but I am not afraid of it.

Telling me I should be afraid of it, and trying to justify those with "oh you actually ARE afraid of it, you just don't know it" smacks strongly of what this entire thread is about.

Just because I am not afraid of death, doesn't make my life awful or miserable or any less meaningful.

It's not a bad thing to be unafraid of death. I wish I was. I'd probably take more risks and have a more fulfilling life to show for it.

Not that I'm saying you're reckless or anything, but you get the idea.

 

[Enteebee]

Tbh in a way I do kinda agree with you dan, most people are apathetic about death, I think for the most part we don't think about it/have many modes of coping with it thus don't care - There are moments however which shake us to think about it, such as maybe a near death experience or whatever. Though I do know also of people with terminal illnesses that will say the same sort of things as you guys (I'm not afraid etc) I simply think this might be a part of their own coping mechanism because they actually are afraid.

 

[Kwayera]

Dan, Cat. I don't believe you.

It's easy to claim to have no fear of death.

But your actions say otherwise. You avoid putting your life in jeopardy, even when it could provide immediate gratification.

As Chadd points out, this also applies to many religious people. If they really believed in ever lasting life and that they would be reunited with their loved ones when they died, why the sorrow when someone dies. Why the shock and and sadness when they are diagnosed with a terminal illness. Shouldn't they be happy about getting to paradise sooner?

And that's where you misunderstand. I avoid putting my life in jeopardy because I like living, but that does not make me fear death. I don't, and I don't know how to explain it any further or make it any clearer.

It's frustrating because I wish I could explain it, my apathy towards death, but clearly it's not getting through. You may not believe me because you ARE afraid of death, and you can't understand anyone not sharing that sentiment. How very Christian of you.


I also actively put myself in danger in a variety of ways - scuba diving, horse riding, driving, flying to places - and death really doesn't stop me from doing these things because I am not afraid of it. If it happens, it happens, and so be it.

 

[Enteebee]

I avoid putting my life in jeopardy because I like living, but that does not make me fear death.

All that death is, is the absence of life. If you 'like living' you 'fear death/the absence of living'. If I like being rich, I fear not being rich. If I like being with my girlfriend, I fear her dumping me. If I like sex, I fear never being able to get it up. If I like my mother, I fear my mother dying.

Where am I going wrong?

 

[Kwayera]

No. n != p. Liking living does not mean that I fear the absence of it.

 

[Kwayera]

As you say, press a gun to her temple and you'd pretty quickly reduce her to a sobbing wreck, pleading for her life.

Here you're conflating death with the means thereof. Having a gun pointed at you would be pretty scary, yes, but I'd be more afraid of the gun than death as an abstract concept.

 

[Kwayera]

That's absurd. If you're not scared of death why would you be scared of a gun?

Emotional response to a direct threat. Instinctually, I couldn't not be afraid. But again, that's not the same as being afraid of the result of being shot in the head.

 

[Enteebee]

If you really, really, really liked drinking milk then I do think you would fear its absence, I'd say whatever worries you have about losing your milk in most cases though are fairly small and thus insignificant to even be called a 'fear'.

I was going to say something similar. However, to be fair to Cat, the definition of fear she endorses, which I'd agree is pretty good, is; "Fear is an emotional response to threats and danger."

I think it's actually a fairly wide definition i.e. Threats and dangers... someone who is rich and fears not being rich is responding to the threat of thiefs, stock market crashes etc etc I would say someone who loves being alive and fears death is responding to the threats of death which are all around us, though the underlying 'fear' might be said to be more of an anxiety.

Emotional response to a direct threat. Instinctually, I couldn't not be afraid. But again, that's not the same as being afraid of the result of being shot in the head.

Emotional response when faced with the threat of death, seems like you would be afraid of death.

 

[Enteebee]

I really do like drinking milk, but I don't wake in the night shivering from thoughts of there being no milk in the house.

You don't like drinking milk anywhere near as much as you like living, plus you know you can always get more milk and it's easy to cope with the fear because you know you can always just fulfill yourself with something else... in the real world your hypothetical makes no sense. If you loved milk as much as you loved your mum, there was only one bottle of milk in the world and nothing could really make up for it, I do think you'd be afraid of losing your milk knowing that there's milk thieves out there that might come and get it.

For me it comes with the territory, if you like something and there is a chance that it could be lost (there is also nothing which can adequately supplement it) then you will be afraid/anxious of losing it (obviously there are a bunch of exceptions etc but I'm not going to go into them).

 

[Slidey]

What is death if it isn't a lack of living? I can't explain it as anything else. So... if not living is the problem, the problem is death. I've heard similar views expressed a few times and I'm trying to work out exactly what it is people are trying to get around, what the issue is with death being a problem, tbh I don't get it yet.

I just told you: fear of lost potential. If I'd achieved everything I wanted to in life, there'd be little reason for me to fear not living.

I've had near death experiences before. I was almost hit by a train once. Time slows down, it's weird. But dying wasn't what I was worried about - avoiding death was. It went like this "Man, I think it might hit me. I don't want to die. There's lots of things I want to do." not "OH MY GOD A TRAIN OH MY GOD I DON'T WANT TO DIE OH NOOO I'M SCARED I'M PEEING MY PANTS". One of them is resignation, one of them is fear.

It's like you're confusing a biological compulsion to avoid death with fear of dying. Even as a kid I was never 'afraid' of death.

Certainly, this isn't true for everybody. But just because you personally are afraid of death, I don't see how you can project that onto everybody else by saying it's semantics.

BTW: I haven't read the thread at all lately. Sorry if I'm misinterpreting you.

 

[Enteebee]

I just told you: fear of lost potential.

There is... to me at least little difference. Obviously the reason we love 'life' isn't necessarily for the sake of not being dead, for instance many people would probably (if the experience of life was terrible enough) prefer to be dead, life is made great by all the experiences we can have (including simple things like being able to have fun with your friends, get to know people), that is what life really is imo, a series of experiences and as I said when I first brought this up obviously terrible circumstances are going to change it.

I imagine 'everything you want to do in life' will never be achieved and for the most part I think you fill your life (like most people) with inanities so for the most part I probably don't even really believe this is your reason for continuing to fear death, it's just what you say when you reflect on the matter.

But dying wasn't what I was worried about - avoiding death was. It went like this "Man, I think it might hit me. I don't want to die. There's lots of things I want to do." not "OH MY GOD A TRAIN OH MY GOD I DON'T WANT TO DIE OH NOOO I'M SCARED I'M PEEING MY PANTS". One of them is resignation, one of them is fear.

...What? You were worried about avoid death because you fear death.

Certainly, this isn't true for everybody. But just because you personally are afraid of death, I don't see how you can project that onto everybody else by saying it's semantics.

It's not just because I'm afraid of death, it's because:

a) It makes sense for us to biologically fear death (I don't see how... you can remove this from a fear of dying), I mean I see our cognitive fear of death as a byproduct of such biological compulsions.
b) People take steps to avoid death, often at great cost by any other measure.
c) It appears if we analyse human society that much of what we do can be tied in as a bit of a defense mechanism against death.

 

[*TRUE*]

Dan, Cat. I don't believe you.

It's easy to claim to have no fear of death.

But your actions say otherwise. You avoid putting your life in jeopardy, even when it could provide immediate gratification.

As Chadd points out, this also applies to many religious people. If they really believed in ever lasting life and that they would be reunited with their loved ones when they died, why the sorrow when someone dies. Why the shock and and sadness when they are diagnosed with a terminal illness. Shouldn't they be happy about getting to paradise sooner?

I dont fear death either. I have an instinct to avoid it , and i enjoy living and will try not to die until i have to , but i am not afraid of it.
Even if i were not a Christian , i cant see why id fear it....except for the fact that i would still have attached alot of meaning to my relationships etc , and would hate to leave ones i love bereft. Its natural , part of a cycle , as natural as living.
Also , i think Zimmerman , that you and Chadd do not understand the responses of ALL religious people.
Certainly not me. When my Grandfather dies i will be devastated...BECAUSE i will miss him. I assume i wont see him in a long time. Ill miss talking and walking with him. Ill be shocked that for the rest of my time on earth , i will not be able to spend time with him.
I think that is normal. I have never met someone so unselfish or as id see it , inhuman as to not miss one they love, to only feel happy for them.
Id be entirely skeptical of such a person.
I dont see time on earth as a wasteful period in which i wait for heaven. I value my life , and ill protect it and enjoy it as best as i can. As a christian , it just means i dont think life here is all there is.
I dont think it affects fear much in terms of death though...

 

[Slidey]

There is... to me at least little difference. Obviously the reason we love 'life' isn't necessarily for the sake of not being dead, for instance many people would probably (if the experience of life was terrible enough) prefer to be dead, life is made great by all the experiences we can have (including simple things like being able to have fun with your friends, get to know people), that is what life really is imo, a series of experiences and as I said when I first brought this up obviously terrible circumstances are going to change it.

I imagine 'everything you want to do in life' will never be achieved and for the most part I think you fill your life (like most people) with inanities so for the most part I probably don't even really believe this is your reason for continuing to fear death, it's just what you say when you reflect on the matter.

No, it's what I tell you to help you comprehend how I see the world. Because I don't fear death and I don't try to rationalise it away; it's just not an important part of my life to even think about.

You're reading like somebody telling an atheist they don't believe in god simply because they fear him.

...What? You were worried about avoid death because you fear death.

No, it was not fear. I was extremely calm and focused. As I said, time slowed down. I summarily assessed ways to get out of the way in time, then did so. I had an adrenaline rush, so clearly there was the flight or fright response, but I did not consciously feel a state of fear (because I can certainly tell the difference).

It's not just because I'm afraid of death, it's because:

a) It makes sense for us to biologically fear death (I don't see how... you can remove this from a fear of dying), I mean I see our cognitive fear of death as a byproduct of such biological compulsions.

Don't confuse the fight or flight response with fear. Fight or flight is a biological imperative. Fear is a psychological interpretation of this imperative which can be altered and trained.

b) People take steps to avoid death, often at great cost by any other measure.

Obviously. They want to keep living. This doesn't mean they fear death. I take steps not to get fired at work. This doesn't mean I fear getting fired (I don't, but it'd be an annoying setback).

c) It appears if we analyse human society that much of what we do can be tied in as a bit of a defense mechanism against death.

1) the individual does not equal human society
2) a defence mechanism against death doesn't have to imply fear with a sufficiently rational entity (humans)

 

[Enteebee]

Also , i think Zimmerman , that you and Chadd do not understand the responses of ALL religious people. Certainly not me. When my Grandfather dies i will be devastated...BECAUSE i will miss him. I assume i wont see him in a long time. Ill miss talking and walking with him. Ill be shocked that for the rest of my time on earth , i will not be able to spend time with him.

That doesn't cut the mustard for me tbh... If you grandfather told you he was going away and you might not see him again (say he went to america and you're too poor to probably ever get there within his lifetime) I doubt you'd be near as upset as you would be upon hearing his death, but it's a hard thing to judge.

No, it's what I tell you to help you comprehend how I see the world. Because I don't fear death and I don't try to rationalise it away; it's just not an important part of my life to even think about.

I imagine that in practice I "fear death" about the same as any of you... that is, in practice I am not worried at all about my eventual demise and I sort of envision myself (if i bother to at all) being quite calm/accepting of it in the future. These to me at least seem to be coping mechanisms for an underlying death anxiety, which is brought to the forefront as a fear when for instance... I'm in a plane and it starts hurtling down towards the ground. That fear I feel is the fear of death.

No, it was not fear. I was extremely calm and focused. As I said, time slowed down. I summarily assessed ways to get out of the way in time, then did so. I had an adrenaline rush, so clearly there was the flight or fright response, but I did not consciously feel a state of fear (because I can certainly tell the difference).

You think fear requires you to not be calm or focused? I would disagree.

Don't confuse the fight or flight response with fear. Fight or flight is a biological imperative. Fear is a psychological interpretation of this imperative which can be altered and trained.

I'm sorry but if you felt the need to 'take flight' you were undoubtedly fearing the situation.

Obviously. They want to keep living. This doesn't mean they fear death. I take steps not to get fired at work. This doesn't mean I fear getting fired (I don't, but it'd be an annoying setback).

I would consider someone saying "I don't really care... but it'd be an annoying setback" to be a minor anxiety. When it comes life it's not like dying would be "an annoying setback".

1) the individual does not equal human society

Human society is made up of individuals... now obviously you might not be a part of this, but tbh I'm extremely sceptical.

2) a defence mechanism against death doesn't have to imply fear with a sufficiently rational entity (humans)

Our defense mechanism is our fear.

-----------------------

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how it is that everything else we value we appear to have a fear of losing other than those of you whom claim to value life?

 

[*TRUE*]

That doesn't cut the mustard for me tbh... If you grandfather told you he was going away and you might not see him again (say he went to america and you're too poor to probably ever get there within his lifetime) I doubt you'd be near as upset as you would be upon hearing his death, but it's a hard thing to judge.

LOL @ you.