Does God exist? (13 Viewers)

[Enteebee]

exactly.

I'd like to put off dying for as long as I can because I like being alive, so if my life was threatened I'd fight to keep it, but that's not the same thing as being afraid of dying. I just don't want to go until I really have to. You could say the same thing about getting out of bed in the morning - I will prolong my time in bed as long as I can because I like sleep and my warm bed, but that doesn't mean I am afraid of the prospect of getting out of bed, I just won't do it until I need to.

You're taking small issues as examples against a desire to live... There are probably few desires you have greater than to continue living, only things which you value highly will you probably feel what we all call 'fear' at losing.

I'll ask the question to you too, if someone puts a gun up against your head, are you afraid? What are you afraid of? If you're going to say 'lost opportunity to do good things' or whatever, you need to realise that 'life' is that opportunity, obviously if we could separate the ability to do things with ourselves while not being alive we probably wouldn't care much about being alive.

 

[Graney]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q38N9QvsdzU

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

You're taking small issues as examples against a desire to live... There are probably few desires you have greater than to continue living, only things which you value highly will you probably feel what we all call 'fear' at losing.

I'll ask the question to you too, if someone puts a gun up against your head, are you afraid? What are you afraid of? If you're going to say 'lost opportunity to do good things' or whatever, you need to realise that 'life' is that opportunity, obviously if we could separate the ability to do things with ourselves while not being alive we probably wouldn't care much about being alive.

Well I know if I get shot it's going to hurt, and I don't like pain, so I'm going to be afraid, anticipating a bullet going into my brain. I'd probably be thinking I didn't want to die, which would be true...but I wouldn't be scared of dying, I just really really wouldn't want to. I think it's natural to fear things that will cause you bodily harm, some weirdo holding you at gunpoint certainly fits that category. Whether that constitutes fearing death is up for debate. I don't think it does.

 

[Captin gay]

Love this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

 

[*TRUE*]

You're taking small issues as examples against a desire to live... There are probably few desires you have greater than to continue living, only things which you value highly will you probably feel what we all call 'fear' at losing.

I'll ask the question to you too, if someone puts a gun up against your head, are you afraid? What are you afraid of? If you're going to say 'lost opportunity to do good things' or whatever, you need to realise that 'life' is that opportunity, obviously if we could separate the ability to do things with ourselves while not being alive we probably wouldn't care much about being alive.

I think fear also has to do with uncertainty,
PAIN is uncertain , u dont always know how long it will be for , how intense it will be...
DEATH on the other hand , is final , its outcome not variable , no different levels of effect. I know what death will mean for me , im nto uncertain.
Therefore the means of dying and 'death' itself can be differentiated in terms of emotional response i think.

 

[Enteebee]

Well I know if I get shot it's going to hurt, and I don't like pain, so I'm going to be afraid, anticipating a bullet going into my brain. I'd probably be thinking I didn't want to die, which would be true...but I wouldn't be scared of dying, I just really really wouldn't want to. I think it's natural to fear things that will cause you bodily harm, some weirdo holding you at gunpoint certainly fits that category. Whether that constitutes fearing death is up for debate. I don't think it does.

IDK I think things we 'really, really, really don't want to happen' are things that we're afraid of happening. I also think it's at least as natural to fear death as pain. Obviously it's hard to show at all that you're not fearing the pain, but I think in saying you 'really, really, really don't want to die' you've still given me enough to believe you're hinting at a fear of your own death.

Can you equate for me perhaps something which you 'really, really, really don't want to happen' as much as your death, then place yourself in a situation where that's immediate and tell me if/why you don't fear it occuring?

 

[Slidey]

Whatever, NTB. Arguing with you on this is like trying to convince an Arab that Israelis have a right to exist, perhaps with less irrational swearing and insults.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

IDK I think things we 'really, really, really don't want to happen' are things that we're afraid of happening. I also think it's at least as natural to fear death as pain. Obviously it's hard to show at all that you're not fearing the pain, but I think in saying you 'really, really, really don't want to die' you've still given me enough to believe you're hinting at a fear of your own death.

Can you equate for me perhaps something which you 'really, really, really don't want to happen' as much as your death, then place yourself in a situation where that's immediate and tell me if/why you don't fear it occuring?

You can't really ask me to compare my life with something else that's equally important to me, because there isn't anything. Once your life is gone, there's no getting it back. There's nothing else that is as final as that.

But that doesn't mean I fear losing my life. I know it is going to happen. I would rather it didn't happen in the near future because I like being alive, but I'm not actually afraid. There is a distinction between not wanting something and being afraid of it, and I don't know how else to explain it to you. You can't fear something that doesn't harm you. Death is not harmful. It can be painful, and I fear pain; it can be sudden and come out of nowhere, and I fear uncertainty. But I don't actually fear dying. I only fear the things that may cause me to die, and the idea that those things could happen to me at any moment, hypothetically speaking. It's not the same thing.

 

[sam04u]

Love this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

A retarded family. lolz

 

[Enteebee]

To me at least I know evolutionary humans are imbued with self-preservation, this comes about in the form of pain which is uncomfortable and causes us to desire to stop the pain and fear which gives us the fight or flight response (making us better able to run away etc etc).... It is all about a desire to stay alive/a desire to not die. So at the biological level we have this desire to stay alive/not die... it makes sense that at our level we fear situations where our death becomes apparent.

You can't really ask me to compare my life with something else that's equally important to me, because there isn't anything. Once your life is gone, there's no getting it back. There's nothing else that is as final as that.

I thought you said you feared the death of your parents? That appears to me to be an event which you 'really, really, really don't want to happen' probably as much (maybe a little more?) than your own death. It seems to me then that things you really, really, really don't want to happen are events which we fear. I continue to ask for an example of an event even somewhat close to your desire to not die which you do not fear.

There is a distinction between not wanting something and being afraid of it, and I don't know how else to explain it to you.

There is a distinction and I think it's primarily about how much you don't want something.

You can't fear something that doesn't harm you. Death is not harmful.

'Harm'? It takes from you all that you love about life.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

To me at least I know evolutionary humans are imbued with self-preservation, this comes about in the form of pain which is uncomfortable and causes us to desire to stop the pain and fear which gives us the fight or flight response (making us better able to run away etc etc).... It is all about a desire to stay alive/a desire to not die. So at the biological level we have this desire to stay alive/not die... it makes sense that at our level we fear situations where our death becomes apparent.



So then there is no event which you fear happening? I thought you said you feared the death of your parents? That appears to me to be an event which you 'really, really, really don't want to happen' probably as much (maybe a little more?) than your own death. It seems to me then that things you really, really, really don't want to happen are events which we fear.



There is a distinction and I think it's primarily about how much you don't want something.



'Harm'? It takes from you all that you love about life.

No I'm not afraid of my parents dying, I think you misread the post lol.

I agree with you that our desire for self preservation leads us to fear situations where we might die, this is true. But there is a difference between that, and being afraid of death itself. The idea of being dead does not scare me. There are a number of ways to die which scare me on the basis that they would be painful and drawn out, however. If someone was threatening to stab me to death I'd be afraid because I know what being cut with something sharp feels like and I don't want it to happen again.

As for harm...I'm only speaking in terms of harm that you can percieve. Once you're dead you're not going to know anything, see anything, feel anything. You'll be dead. I don't see how it can harm you in any real sense. Yes, you are losing your life, which you do not wish to lose although you know eventually you have to, but this doesn't equal harm for me.

 

[Kwayera]

To me at least I know evolutionary humans are imbued with self-preservation, this comes about in the form of pain which is uncomfortable and causes us to desire to stop the pain and fear which gives us the fight or flight response (making us better able to run away etc etc).... It is all about a desire to stay alive/a desire to not die. So at the biological level we have this desire to stay alive/not die... it makes sense that at our level we fear situations where our death becomes apparent.

Not necessarily. We have a biological desire to pass on our genes, but not necessarily to avoid dying altogether. All our evolutionary defences are geared to allow us to survive long enough to successfully pass on our genes. Fight/flight response is an adjunct of that - not necessarily avoiding death altogether, which is something you have odd persistence in insisting we must fear it and indeed have a genetic basis to. We don't.

'Harm'? It takes from you all that you love about life.

This is an odd statement. Death doesn't 'take anything away' - you don't notice it and thus you cannot care.

 

[*TRUE*]

Chadd why dont you elucidate your reasons for fearing death?
You have said before that you wish there was a heaven so you would see loved ones again etc... does your wish for that translate into a hope for that , in turn leading to a fear that death might not be the end ( ironically as you hope it is not?) and that what lies beyond death might be unpleasant?
Im fairly sure this is not the case but i just honestly cannot see a reason for an atheist to fear death.

 

[Enteebee]

Not necessarily. We have a biological desire to pass on our genes, but not necessarily to avoid dying altogether. All our evolutionary defences are geared to allow us to survive long enough to successfully pass on our genes. Fight/flight response is an adjunct of that - not necessarily avoiding death altogether, which is something you have odd persistence in insisting we must fear it and indeed have a genetic basis to. We don't.

Yes I'm quite aware that our evolution is always merely geared towards passing on genes, however in doing so we have been given a desire for self-preservation. It's like if I said we've been given a desire to be intellectually curious, obviously this is just a result of evolution's workings to pass on our genes, but it doesn't manifest its self in that way.

This is an odd statement. Death doesn't 'take anything away' - you don't notice it and thus you cannot care.

Obviously once we're dead no harm can be done to 'us', 'we' cease to exist. However as a living creature I can at least somewhat conceive that all which I now am will be gone, much as I can when someone else dies conceive that all which they were is now gone. I would say there is harm in your death even if you yourself (as you no longer exist) cannot appreciate all which you've lost... We place values on things which ultimately are probably fairly unimportant, but from the perspective of a living, breathing human being I believe they can appear all-important.

Chadd why dont you elucidate your reasons for fearing death?

When I am put in such situations (as a train coming towards me) I feel what I can only describe as fear, it seems to me to be a basic biological reaction kinda like if I haven't eaten I will feel hungry. Furthermore I would like to continue living as I currently am because I'm quite content.

You have said before that you wish there was a heaven so you would see loved ones again etc... does your wish for that translate into a hope for that , in turn leading to a fear that death might not be the end ( ironically as you hope it is not?) and that what lies beyond death might be unpleasant?

I definitely would say I have some sort of a hope that people I love etc are in some form still 'alive', however there is no fear associated with that hope i.e. that there might be an unpleasant afterlife (though I definitely have considered it).

 

[Kwayera]

Yes I'm quite aware that our evolution is always merely geared towards passing on genes, however in doing so we have been given a desire for self-preservation. It's like if I said we've been given a desire to be intellectually curious, obviously this is just a result of evolution's workings to pass on our genes, but it doesn't manifest its self in that way.

But there's no solid genetic basis for being afraid of death, especially death of old age (which is uncommon in the animal kingdom). Fearing death does not neccessarily increase your avoidance of it. "Fearing" and thus avoiding circumstances that may LEAD to death, like being hunted, certainly do because if you're injured in the process it directly harms your ability to pass on those genes. But there is no genetic basis of even need for fear of death - and there's no evidence that animals other than ourselves actively fear it, like you do.

 

[Enteebee]

No I'm not afraid of my parents dying, I think you misread the post lol.

You wouldn't feel afraid if your mum was going in for risky surgery? Wow... I would.

I agree with you that our desire for self preservation leads us to fear situations where we might die, this is true. But there is a difference between that, and being afraid of death itself.

I equate them as basically the same, I mean we can 'fear death' in situations where we might die , we can't fear death while it's happening. Perhaps you mean that you don't think you'll mind being dead, which I obviously agree with.

 

[Enteebee]

But there's no solid genetic basis for being afraid of death, especially death of old age (which is uncommon in the animal kingdom). Fearing death does not neccessarily increase your avoidance of it. "Fearing" and thus avoiding circumstances that may LEAD to death, like being hunted, certainly do because if you're injured in the process it directly harms your ability to pass on those genes. But there is no genetic basis of even need for fear of death - and there's no evidence that animals other than ourselves actively fear it, like you do.

I believe a fear of circumstances which lead to death is a fear of death, it also seems to make sense biologically because at the very least it's much simpler for something to simply fear death and then whatever situation that comes up be able to quickly do a calculation about what would minimise the chance of death.

 

[*TRUE*]

I believe a fear of circumstances which lead to death is a fear of death, it also seems to make sense biologically because at the very least it's much simpler for something to simply fear death and then whatever situation that comes up be able to quickly do a calculation about what would minimise the chance of death.

Fear of circumstances which lead to death....well , how about just fear of those circumstances for the unpleasantess of them?
Such as uncertainty and pain?

 

[Enteebee]

Fear of circumstances which lead to death....well , how about just fear of those circumstances for the unpleasantess of them?
Such as uncertainty and pain?

Fearing the 'uncertainty' of death? Seems like a fear of death. It's possible that you're just afraid of the pain, but there are ways to die that people fear (though I'll conceed less) that have little pain - However I suppose perhaps you could say you fear the uncertain prospect that there could possibly be pain.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

I believe a fear of circumstances which lead to death is a fear of death, it also seems to make sense biologically because at the very least it's much simpler for something to simply fear death and then whatever situation that comes up be able to quickly do a calculation about what would minimise the chance of death.

Things that can lead to death don't always necessarily do so, though. If someone stabbed me multiple times I might die or I might not but I'd fear it happening regardless because it would hurt like a bitch regardless of whether I died as a result.