Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[MasterP]

Does God exist?

No .

 

[katie_tully]

Oh, well there we go. Master P jas just saved us from another 300 pages of argument with that.

 

[Homey]

God DOES exist

Ok, number one, to the individual(s) who enjoys making very rude, very offensive "jokes" about God, listen up.

The New Testament quite clearly speaks of examples such as yourselves who wish to see "proofs"...

Luke 4:1-13:


The Temptation of Jesus
1Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit in the desert, 2where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.
3The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

4Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone.’[a]”

5The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7So if you worship me, it will all be yours.”

8Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

9The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10For it is written: “ ‘He will command his angels concerning you
to guard you carefully; 11they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

12Jesus answered, “It says: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”


Now the foundations of believing in GOD is based on faith, its simple you either have it or you don’t. But it is clear to Christians such as myself that GOD exists, HE is not something that hallmark invented to gain money from religious holidays. You are so fast to rule out the existence of GOD, yet you are NOT so quick to rule out the complete validity of the Big Bang theory. Ok they came up with a formula that states that matter can become nothing (something along those lines)...then they reversed the formula so that matter can come out of nothing. Fine, its a mathematical finding, and yeh sure it can be real. But remember the "Creation Story" is not exact, the story in the Old Testament was an expression of how GOD created the universe from the perspective of those people, and they had no vast education to base their information on. But we never know maybe the Big Bang is appropriated into the creation story. It is uncertain; BUT WHAT IS CERTAIN IS THAT GOD definitely does exist AND did create all. HOW ON EARTH DID SOME POSITVE AND NEGATIVE FORCES COME OUT OF "Nothing" (as the scientists claim) and all of a sudden create this Power ball which had the potential to create the ENTIRE UNIVERSE??? Scientists came up with two theories to deal with this issue...one that there are other universes side by side ours and therefore whatever physical forces that’s outside our "box" (i.e. our universe) must have created ours. But that’s absurd, its ridiculous as it can not be backed up AT ALL. Another theory is that it was BASED ON CHANCE and the good old LUCK. Hmm, science has come to a complete halt now. Please do not think i personally am against science, no way, i believe in science, i mean look what it has done positively...But one must not deny the existence of GOD.

NOW, science is based on evidence right...facts to prove the cause and effect of phenomena? for instance you might eat ice cream and say that its delicious...yet people might say what makes it delicious; or you might wake up to a beautiful sunny morning and u might say 'its a gorgeous day isn’t it and people might ask what makes it gorgeous'? The point is you can't scientifically prove each person's individual experience and then use it as a template/best fit model for others to follow because not everyone is going to have the same experience. That relates back to our experience with God...its interpersonal. But if you need any empirical or tangible evidence; you can see it in the person’s soul, you can see it in that person’s happiness, his/her inner peace, goodwill...
Personally i have faith in GOD, my faith has been tested over the years and yeh sometimes things can become tough, but I’m always standing there for GOD. GOD has been there when i have turned to HIM, i have felt HIS blessings. For instance, i prayed in Yr 10 that i do well in the School Certificate and prayed for particular bands. Now that entire year i was faced with such horrid tribulations such as failing maths and personally, yr 10 was a BIG DEAL FOR ME....but i continued to pray and remain strong in faith. It wasn’t until i viewed my results that i began to cry, i cried because i felt my prayers answered, even during those TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE times when i struggled and failed even though i studied...i got those band 5s and i was just on top of the earth. It is in such events that you feel GOD...it doesn’t matter how you perceive my experience, its how i perceived it and felt the blessings of GOD...likewise, your experiences with GOD will differ to mine and you may hold greater emphasis on it than i would.
I will share more...my family would have been destroyed in the middle east had it not been for our prayers. We were refugees in the Middle East nearby Iran, and our prayers were answered when these Catholic nuns came to our help. NOW KEEP IN MIND, THE MIDDLE EAST IS PREDOMINATLY MUSLIM, SO WE WERE SO BLESSED TO HAVE CATHOLIC NUNS NEAR BY. They helped us get to Australia. GOD was there for us, we experienced FIRST HAND EXPLOSIONS, DEATH, BOMBS, KILLINGS, and yet, we did not give up on our faith, we stood strong and prayed. WE WERE THERE. My mother had a dream of Our Lady (Mary) shielding us in her veil protecting us during our horrid, bloody journey. And to this day we are most thankful. A BOMB WAS AIMED DIRECTLY TOWARDS A CHRISTIAN CHURCH NEAR BY, AND AS IT CAME HEAD ON INTO THE CHURCH, It DID NOT EXPLODE. IT JUST FELL INTO THE YARD AND DID NOT DETONATE. THESE ARE INSTANCES OF DIVINE INTERVENTION. I would appreciate it that no one makes any personal attacks on my experiences as i have shared something very sensitive to you all.


Now for those who want these pieces of evidence, ill share some with you then you can go and research:

1) The Miracle of Lanciano

Ok this DIVINE (i.e. GODLY) miracle occurred during Mass (which is a public worship amongst Christians) conducted by a Basilian monk in the 7th century. After he consecrated the bread and wine (as Christ did during the Last Supper), he began to doubt the whole process of transubstantiation (the turning of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ). And so before those witnesses at the mass, he too witnessed the bread and wine turning into the literal flesh and literal blood. The Blood (which was once wine) coagulated into five clots of equal size. Now here is more to the miracle. In 1574, before Archbishop Rodriguez and crowd, the coagulated clots of blood were weighed and it turned out that each one of different size equalled the weight of the five clots together. The Lord wanted to teach the Church that Christ is totally present in the smallest fragment of the consecrated Body and Blood. Now yes scientific analysis was conducted over the years. The Conventual Friars Minor verified the authenticity of the miracle. BETWEEN NOVEMBER 1970 and early March 1971, laboratory tests were conducted with the
best Professors Linoli and Bertoli. In 1973, U.N.E.S.C.O. Medical Commission conducted and collated their findings via 500 tests lasting for a year and 3 months. They concluded that:
a) the flesh is truly flesh and the coagulated blood is truly blood
b) the flesh and blood are human
c) the flesh specifically is a muscular tissue from the heart (Myocardium)
d) the flesh and Blood are type AB
e) the diagram of the Blood equals to that of one taken from a man ON THAT SAME DAY ALL THOSE CENTURIES AGO
f) Flesh and blood are exactly like those of a human being that REALLY existed
g) no evidence pointed of a permeation of the organic tissues by any substance designed to preserve them via mummification
h) the manner in which this sample of flesh was obtained by the dissection of a part of Myocardium supposes exceptional skills on the part of the medical practitioner...and you and i know, that this was NOT POSSIBLE IN THE 7th CENTURY!!
i) EVEN THOUGH THE TEST WAS CONDUCTED IN OUR 90s, THE TESTS SHOWED THAT THERE WAS ABSOLUTLY NO SIGN OF incipient corruption even though the flesh and blood have been exposed for centuries to the action of physical, atmospheric and biological agents.

2) Stigmata

Now stigmata’s have been experienced by many since the death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour. I PERSONALLY HAVE SEEN THE PROCESSES OF STIGMATA AND HOW THEY JUST HAPPEN. THE SAME EXACT WOUNDS OF CHRIST APPEAR ON OTHERS ON GOOD FRIDAY, THEY EXPERIENCE THE WOUNDS OF CHRIST, AND IT IS NO COINCIDENCE THAT THEY RECEIVE WOUNDS IN THE EXACT SAME PLACES CHRIST DID.

Our religion is not based on miracles only so that those prideful can get a glimpse, NO, you must have faith and seek GOD in your lives. The New Testament above quite beautifully presents to us a situation that we are in. The Devil tempts Christ USE YOUR POWER TO CONVINCE OTHERS, USE IT SO THAT PEOPLE CAN SWEEP BEFORE YOU, but as Christ replies, the Scripture states, Do not tempt the Lord your GOD. GOD IS NOT A GENI WHERE EVERY COMMAND IS GRANTED. GOD IS SUPREME AND IMMORTAL; HE DESERVES OUR PRAISE AND WORSHIP. I mean i always put it this way, imagine you had children, and along the way they denied you as their mother or father...HOW WOULD YOU FEEL? IF YOUR CHILD SUDDENLY GOT UP IN YOUR FACE AND SAID YOU ARE NOT MY PARENT! IT WOULD CREATE HURT AND PAIN. This is so similar to our relationship with GOD.
GOD does not Kill, he is a GOD of compassion and Mercy, that is why Christ died for us, JESUS DEFEATED DEATH and by death i mean eternal damnation. HE opened the possibility of entering heaven. The temptation of Satan in our world is great believe it or not but the day will come for those who resist the temptations and who are worthy of Christ's promise, that they shall be saved.

THINK ABOUT IT, WHY ARE YOU SO READY TO DISMISS GOD WHEN YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE? WHY DO YOU NOT GO AND STUDY THE STRONG PAPASY AVAILABLE AND LEARN ABOUT THE DOCTRINE AND THEN MAKEPROPER ARGUMENTS?

A great supporter of Darwinism and atheism, Prof. Richard Dawkins even admits that "We have seen that living things are too improbable and too beautifully “designed” to have come into existence by chance."

Guys look, i am strong in my faith and i hope, in the name of Christ and GOD above, that some positive impact has been made. PS. In no way was my aim to insult anyone.

 

[soha]

man u people have way too much time on ur hands
i think as much as we post out opinions and give evidence
no one is gonna change their minds..or see it differently
but yeah i guess this thread is here 4 a reason

 

[katie_tully]

Guys look, i am strong in my faith and i hope, in the name of Christ and GOD above, that some positive impact has been made. PS. In no way was my aim to insult anyone.

You failed. Miserably.

 

[Homey]

not yet i have not

 

[soha]

this guys is on a mission

 

[Kierkegaard]

I'm an agnostic and I used a MUCH more sound argument for the existence of God. You failed miserably.

 

[katie_tully]

Why do you all keep using bible extracts, bashing us over the head with the same readings? Evidently if these actually proved anything, this debate wouldnt still be here.
That's like me going to my biology text book and pulling out a paragraph that says "Charles Darwin came up with the theory of natural selection...", and then saying that's all the proof you need for evolution.

 

[Homey]

but you see, people in this discussion wanted proof and evidence, i gave them that...i did not focus on Bible extracts alone...but believe it or not, the Bible extarcts are equally important...but you want proof go read my response again

 

[katie_tully]

Luke 4:1-13:
for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

That sentence made me laugh. He was hungry. Well, holy crap.

“It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone.

Possibly the most brilliant deduction Jesus has ever made.
If you drink without eating for 40 days, your salt levels become dilute. Actually, it's a pretty nice process.
"The cellular membrane lets water through to dilute its intra-cellular salt content and causes its level to fall proportionately. This is the reaction of drowning in fresh water. Water entering the lungs passes directly into the blood, diluting the salt. According to the principle described above, the water penetrates into the red blood cells, which swell up and in the end burst."

Now the foundations of believing in GOD is based on faith, its simple you either have it or you don’t. But it is clear to Christians such as myself that GOD exists, HE is not something that hallmark invented to gain money from religious holidays. You are so fast to rule out the existence of GOD, yet you are NOT so quick to rule out the complete validity of the Big Bang theory.

Incorrect. The Big Bang theory is just that, a theory. However, people often believe this over the Bible, because what I've just read there about the Devil tempting Jesus sounds like hocus pocus. The other reason it is believed, is because the Big bang theory can be tested on a smale scale using simple molecules to produce complex amino acids.

Ok they came up with a formula that states that matter can become nothing (something along those lines)...then they reversed the formula so that matter can come out of nothing.

The forumla we were discussing earlier has been used to try and prove God, we weren't using it against. Many athiests however can refute it.

Fine, its a mathematical finding, and yeh sure it can be real.
But remember the "Creation Story" is not exact, the story in the Old Testament was an expression of how GOD created the universe from the perspective of those people, and they had no vast education to base their information on. But we never know maybe the Big Bang is appropriated into the creation story. It is uncertain; BUT WHAT IS CERTAIN IS THAT GOD definitely does exist AND did create all. HOW ON EARTH DID SOME POSITVE AND NEGATIVE FORCES COME OUT OF "Nothing" (as the scientists claim) and all of a sudden create this Power ball which had the potential to create the ENTIRE UNIVERSE???

How did some "being" just come from nothing?


Actually, I cant be bothered aguing the rest. You haven't proved anything. You've just given a whole "God exists, because blah blah" argument.

 

[GirlGoneMad]

i remember i went to a sheik and asked him to explain it to me
coz even i as a muslim was finding it hard ot understand that if god knows what we do y do we do bad stuff?
but it all makes sense to me now...and im not gonna explain coz i wont make sense and i will confuse everyone
but its really sensative..he said so himself
he also said..that its something people shouldnt think about and look into too much
it wont put ur mind at ease...

he said that.....?? i heard that once from a priest...he kind of told me to "just believe" evn though he couldnt answer my question....but we should look into it and make sure we understand it..or else that would make us blind followers and when we die everything weve done on earth isnt counted if we werent sure wat we were doing was correct.....a blind follower is the most ignorant and dangerous of all.....coz they dont understand what theyre doing.......not that im dissing ur shiekh or anything but we should all be encouraged to look into things as much as possible

(I know your muslim Soha but I'm just letting you know what the bible says)

Proverbs 14:15 Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps.

 

[GirlGoneMad]

i dont believe anything with the word genesis in it.......

I don't understand why you all pick and choose which bits of your faith you're going to follow.
New/Old testament are both by the word of God, are they not?

2 Tim 3:16, 17 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

 

[GirlGoneMad]

ahhhhhh ok we kinda disagree on that but.....still....god knows wat well do yet he dosent make us do it as for the millionth time THAT WOULD BE TAKING AWAY OUR FREE WILL

God may have the capability of seeing what we'll do, but he does not always use this ability.

God is able to foretell the future. He describes himself as "the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, 'My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do.'" (Isaiah 46:10) Down through human history, God has had his prophecies recorded to show that he can exercise his foreknowledge and foretell events before they take place.

The Scriptures reveal that there are situations in which God chooses not to foreknow the outcome. E.G. Just before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, he declared: "I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it." (Genesis 18:21) This text clearly shows us that God did not foreknow the extent of the depravity in those cities before he investigated matters. God can foresee certain events, but in many cases, he has chosen not to use his foreknowledge. Because God is almighty, he is free to exercise his abilities as he wishes, not according to the wishes of imperfect humans.

The fact that God did not choose to know which course mankind would take did not prevent him from prophesying the consequences of man's good or bad actions. A mechanic who warns a driver of the poor condition of his vehicle cannot be held responsible if an accident occurs or be accused of predestining it. Likewise, God cannot be accused of predestining the sad consequences of individuals' actions.

 

[soha]

nah man
we believe god knows everything
and we cant say what god chooses to know and what he chooses to do
we know nothing
we are humans
he is god
he knows everything

 

[GirlGoneMad]

im not christain........which is why it annoys me when someone says "the bible is full of contradictions therefore there is no god".....

The instances where people say that the bible contains contradictions, are demonstrating a lack of understanding. If anyone has any examples, I will try to show them why it is not a contradiction.

 

[soha]

The instances where people say that the bible contains contradictions, are demonstrating a lack of understanding. If anyone has any examples, I will try to show them why it is not a contradiction.

everyone says its full of contradictions
ive read a bit of a book called 1001 contradictions in the bible
and to explain them you have to condradict yourself?
its not worth all the time and effort and the debate

 

[Homey]

KATIE TULLY: "That sentence made me laugh. He was hungry. Well, holy crap."

==>Umm, The opening is suppose to put the responder in some perspective.

KATIE TULLY: “Possibly the most brilliant deduction Jesus has ever made.
If you drink without eating for 40 days, your salt levels become dilute. Actually, it's a pretty nice process. "The cellular membrane lets water through to dilute its intra-cellular salt content and causes its level to fall proportionately. This is the reaction of drowning in fresh water. Water entering the lungs passes directly into the blood, diluting the salt. According to the principle described above, the water penetrates into the red blood cells, which swell up and in the end burst.""


==>Umm, if you knew actually have read and studied the Bible, you would realise that the messages of Christ are not completely literal, they can be symbolic too I mean you read HIS parables, these are not literal, these are messages being communicated metaphorically. “The kingdom of GOD is like mustard seed”…this does not mean the kingdom is a mustard seed, his message is being communicated via metaphors so that his disciples could understand. "Man does not live on bread alone." means that humanity cannot dwell on material possessions, that there need to be a connection with GOD. You do not know the Bible nor the scripture, so you are feeding people all these scientific FACTS which i do acknowledge and accept, but you’re not seeing the message at all, you are just concluding and using science when it is not necessary.


KATIE TULLY: "Incorrect. The Big Bang theory is just that, a theory. However, people often believe this over the Bible, because what I've just read there about the Devil tempting Jesus sounds like hocus pocus. The other reason it is believed, is because the Big bang theory can be tested on a smale scale using simple molecules to produce complex amino acids."

==> The Devil tempting Christ is not hocus pocus, you do not understand the foundations of the religion so you automatically deem it as "hocus pocus". yeh we know the Big Bang can be tested, in fact these tests indicated sounds or energy waves that continue to ring in our universe since the Big Bang. But you don’t seem to explain “WHY did it occur”. No one can prove why it occurred, that its just by chance some sort of physical and chemical reaction occurred? No way, something started it, and in my opinion GOD definitely created the universe. Now predictably i know you will continue to claim that all i argue is "God exists because etc"....no i already gave evidence of HIS existence, you are not being open minded.



KATIE TULLY: The forumla we were discussing earlier has been used to try and prove God, we weren't using it against. Many athiests however can refute it.


==> Makes no sense what you are saying.

KATIE TULLY: How did some "being" just come from nothing? Actually, I cant be bothered aguing the rest. You haven't proved anything. You've just given a whole "God exists, because blah blah" argument.

==> lol, that’s the whole point of being a supreme power, you are outside of time and space, the Bible mentions it. But of course that’s not enough for you. Again, i gave you evidence. And no I am sorry i have not argued God exists because blah blah....i went into detail why GOD exists, gave the "proof" you people want, explained more from a personal level and shared info from Bible...but you are rejecting it all...so really why start the debate in the first place if you are not willing to embrace anything we say...simple

There’s really no point continuing this debate because no matter what we say you just will not accept it, NOW I RESPECT THAT, but why can’t you respect OUR beliefs? I hope you do realise that calling our faith "hocus pocus" is highly offensive.

 

[GirlGoneMad]

well..i dont know..coz christianity confuses me ina sense that one minute jesus is god
then hes gods son?
and holy spirit and ghost?
and i will never understand

The trinity is not a true christian teaching although most christians teach it.

Definition: The central doctrine of religions of Christendom. According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three "Persons" are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God, or that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Jehovah. Not a Bible teaching.

Encyclopædia Britannica says: "Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord' (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since."

The Encyclopedia Americana we read: "Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."

The holy spirit is referred to as a helper that 'teaches,' 'bears witness,' 'speaks' and 'hears.' (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) But other texts say that people were "filled" with holy spirit, that some were 'baptized' with it or "anointed" with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38) These latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God's holy spirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood. The Holy Scriptures tell us the personal name of the Father - Jehovah. They inform us that the Son is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the Scriptures is a personal name applied to the holy spirit. Acts 7:55, 56 reports that Stephen was given a vision of heaven in which he saw "Jesus standing at God's right hand." But he made no mention of seeing the holy spirit. New Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "The majority of N[ew] T[estament] texts reveal God's spirit as something, not someone; this is especially seen in the parallelism between the spirit and the power of God."

Matt. 26:39, : "Going a little farther he [Jesus Christ] fell on his face and prayed, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.'" (If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father's will.)

John 8:17, 18, : "[Jesus answered the Jewish Pharisees:] In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me." (So, Jesus definitely spoke of himself as being an individual separate and distinct from the Father.)

John 14:28, : "[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I."

Thus, the trinity grossly misrepresents the true God.

Take a look here for more info...

 

[GirlGoneMad]

Why do you all keep using bible extracts, bashing us over the head with the same readings? Evidently if these actually proved anything, this debate wouldnt still be here.
That's like me going to my biology text book and pulling out a paragraph that says "Charles Darwin came up with the theory of natural selection...", and then saying that's all the proof you need for evolution.

The bible is God's word and is proof of his existence. The bible could not have been entirely written by man.