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Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter MoonlightSonata
- Start date
Um... believing in the existence of a God has to be with no question. You said you were sure. Therefore, it is an assumption as you don't have proof.
The internet is not the most accurate resource. Assessment tasks and uni assigment must use other textual resources purely for this fact. My comment was not sarcastic to you, it was sarcastic to the ability of the internet to provide you with true information.
I am not an atheist. I am no more right that you. We could well both be wrong. I admit I have no idea whether God exists or not but I don't claim to have all the information and I don't base my life's beliefs and my values on a guess. On faith.
In addition to this, how could u believe me to take what you say is true? Find me some evidence other than in the bible, from historical books which can prove the existence of Jesus as definitely Gods son. I don't refuse to believe out of stubborness. Good evidence doesn't exist.
The internet is not the most accurate resource. Assessment tasks and uni assigment must use other textual resources purely for this fact. My comment was not sarcastic to you, it was sarcastic to the ability of the internet to provide you with true information.
I am not an atheist. I am no more right that you. We could well both be wrong. I admit I have no idea whether God exists or not but I don't claim to have all the information and I don't base my life's beliefs and my values on a guess. On faith.
In addition to this, how could u believe me to take what you say is true? Find me some evidence other than in the bible, from historical books which can prove the existence of Jesus as definitely Gods son. I don't refuse to believe out of stubborness. Good evidence doesn't exist.
Not-That-Bright
Andrew Quah
So you believe there's a possibility that those religions are correct... but people that have other spiritual beliefs, or are atheists are simply wrong?
Not-That-Bright
Andrew Quah
so that WHOLE argument isn't as strong as your ONE peice of possible ambiguous evidence?
Not-That-Bright
Andrew Quah
again your argument comes back to this.superbird said:
Why is it that first you tell us 'I HAVE EVIDENCE THAT THE FLOOD HAPPENED THEREFOR IT IS TRUE!', then we present you with a pile of evidence that shows a flood having been almost impossible, and the story of the ark to be even more ludicris you forget about evidence, logic, reasoning and decide to fall back on 'With God anything is possible'.
Anyways thanks for the interesting debate but I must go now and study for physics and religion on Wednesday.
I didn't mean to offend anybody with my comments. I am merely passionate about my religion and therefore felt inclined to defend it.
I didn't mean to offend anybody with my comments. I am merely passionate about my religion and therefore felt inclined to defend it.
Not-That-Bright
Andrew Quah
Yes, and again in the end came back to 'have faith', 'god makes the impossible possible', etc etc...
Of course you're passionate about your religion... wanna see how religions get started?
# Self reproduction
Obviously, this is the most important part of the meme. If your beliefs do not spread, they will die pretty quickly. Getting others to believe is vitally important, and many of the other elements are used to help this one.
It is good to tell others about this belief. Not only will it make them better people, but converting others helps justify the belief. If you have children, it is good to make them also follow this belief. Children are a blessing from God, and will also believe absolutely anything you tell them.
It can take a lot of work to convert some people, but it is always worth the effort as you are doing them good. Failing to spread the good news is a sin.
Example : the Roman Catholic church uses this to great effect, intentionally or not. The doctrinal bans on contraception and abortion ensure that as many babies as possible are born into religious families, and those babies will be brought up to share the same beliefs as their parents.
# Reward
Believing is good. It will make you a better person, and you will be rewarded in this life and the next. Good things that happen to you are blessings from God, and you should be grateful for them. Other good things should be seen as justification of the truth of the belief system and of God's approval of your actions. Anything positive that happens that does not have much to do with the belief can be claimed as a Miracle. Good harvests, childbirth, battles won, money donated etc. may all be seen as miracles, showing that God approves of you. Sayings such as "God helps those who help themselves" help reinforce this.
# Faith as a virtue
Belief without evidence is good. It is a sign of virtue, purity, trust and piety. In fact, if something is particularly hard to believe in, you require much stronger faith to accept it and are therefore a more virtuous person as a result. Belief despite contradictory objective evidence is especially good. Those who have trouble accepting seemingly arbitrary and implausible things are doubters, skeptics and unenlightened. They should take lessons from those of stronger faith who have no trouble believing.
Example:
"And the Son of God died, which is immediately credible because it is absurd. And buried he rose again, which is certain because it is impossible." - Tertullian, 2nd century christian
I've also heard (but not confirmed) that the Jewish Kosher rules work in a similar way - they are (seemingly) arbitrary, complicated, difficult to implement and hard to follow, so it requires considerable strength of faith to keep to a completely kosher diet.
# Reinforcement
Include many rituals and ceremonies that happen at regular intervals throughout the year. Eventually, these may be incorporated into the local traditions. They also provide a focal point for believers to concentrate on one particular aspect of the belief. Also, it can be good to include rituals which are expected to be performed at key stages of follower's lives. Birth/naming rituals, coming of age, weddings and funerals can all be given a religious aspect (and many will also become local traditions).
Almost anything positive can be attributed to God, and anything bad can be explained as being "mysterious", thus helping people understand that God is behind everything and even things which look bad might actually be good, if only we could understand it from God's point of view. Which, of course, we never can so we'll just have to trust God, won't we?
# Punishment
Failure to believe is bad. It makes you a bad person, and you will be punished in this life and the next. Note: helping non-believers to start believing is good, as it obviously means they will no longer deserve to be punished. Informing non-believers of the available punishments can help to convince them to believe (if you assume that threats of eternal torment are going to be plausible to someone who doesn't actually believe in an afterlife, and you deflect those awkward questions about why a loving god would want to see someone tortured forever).
Bad things that happen to you may be either
* A blessing from God, in order to strengthen your faith. You just have to understand the message.
* Punishment from God, for your sin.
* Attacks from the Devil, to attempt to turn you from God. You must strengthen your faith.
Remember - nothing, absolutely nothing, happens for no reason.
# Self defence
Many non-believers will laugh at your beliefs or persecute you because of them. This is a sign that your beliefs are in fact True. The non-believers are trying to destroy your faith because they know that this is so. Only those who share your beliefs are good people. Converting others to your beliefs increases the number of good people and reduces the number of bad people. People who leave the group are bad and should be avoided if they refuse to come back. For some people, the name "religion" is not satisfactory as it lumps your true beliefs with the false beliefs of other religions. Try using "relationship" or "reality" instead (e.g. "Don't make the mistake of calling Christianity a religion - it's reality").
You must also defend against attack from within. Encouraging belief in Mysterious Divine Purpose is useful for this, as are the following:
* Expelling doubters from the group. If they are no longer around, no-one will hear their arguments. Killing them is often not actually necessary, and even if the voices in your head tell you it's okay, remember that the godless government will likely frown on such activity.
* Claim that doubts are sent by the Devil (or as a test by God), and must be overcome. See Faith, above.
* Encourage people to accept the teachings of those who are qualified to interpret the message. (See Scriptural Interpretation below).
* Replies such as "It's a mystery", "We are not meant to know these things", "God works in mysterious ways", "Do not question these teachings", and "Oh, so you think you know better than God, do you?" are all good for deflecting tricky questions.
Revelations from Above allow you to adapt the beliefs to changing circumstances. For instance, maybe you're bigotted and don't like people from a certain minority group, but eventually your congregration expands so much that many of those people wish to join, and outsiders are making irrational claims about "racism" and "discrimination". What to do? Simple, have a Revelation that allows people from the minority to join (possibly with some small restrictions). This makes your movement appear to be more friendly, open-minded, and will keep the police out of your hair for a while longer.
Example : A Jehovah's Witness I once knew, when discussing evolution and creationism, told me that she had been warned to watch out for the particular bemused, incredulous smile that I was unable to keep off my face. The fact that I was amused by her beliefs reinforced her view that they were correct, as she had been told this would happen when discussing them.
# Self righteousness
God is your side. Believers are God's chosen people, and only those who believe will go into paradise. Things done in the name of God are, by definition, virtuous and just. God shares your feelings and what others call prejudices - this is how you know that you are right.
(This can lead to some of the most extreme problems with religious belief. A tiny minority of people who sincerely believe they are doing God's work see no problem in breaking "worldly" laws, as they answer only to a higher power - God himself. If you perceive governments and law enforcement agencies as tools of the devil, it makes it much easier to justify acts of violence against your "enemies")
# Scriptural interpretation
The holy words are mysterious, and cannot be correctly read by just anyone. They must be interpreted by a person who is trained, enlightened or gifted in these matters. A passage that appears to mean one thing, may actually mean something quite different, and only the interpreters can glean the correct meaning. These people can also determine which passages are literal truth, metaphorical, no longer relevant and which one of several contradictory passages is the true one. They must be listened to. Questioning official interpretation is the work of a heretic.
# Revenue
If the believers are encouraged to donate generously to the cause, this will help to spread it further. It will help pay for missionaries to travel to far-off lands, and local concerns such as soup-kitchens and other charities. If your temples are dripping with gold and silver, they are far more impressive to the poverty stricken locals who are lucky to have a handful of buttons to eat. Some religious leaders make the mistake of blowing their loot on fleets of Rolls-Royces - sometimes you can get away with this, but more often than not it can spell the end for your meme as people become disillusioned. Far better to spend the money on enormous Holy buildings throughout the land if you want the meme to continue for centuries.
People who have invested heavily in their religion are more likely to want to think of it as The One True Religion, so associating donations with piety, virtue and morality can only help the meme to survive. Giving to the poor is also good, as it improves your standing in the local community, and makes the poor people perceive the believers as good, kind people, and might encourage them to join up.
If the meme deals with revenue generation well enough, most followers will donate purely altruistically, and anyone who questions their motives will be rightly singled out as a cynic. Of course, the cash will still come flooding in.
# Wide coverage
The beliefs should be reasonably vague and ambiguous, to allow as many people as possible to find something in them that is acceptable. If you restrict the meme to a strict, clear definition it will never get very widespread. It needs to include elements which range from very touchy-feely, liberal to extremely hard-line, no compromise positions. This allows some people to perceive the belief as nice, gentle and uplifting but also allows room for those with extremist outlooks. You want to get everyone from tree-hugging hippies to crazed paranoid gunmen.
Preferably, as many possible points of view should be catered for, even those that appear to contradict one another. People can then refer to other members of the belief as "not real believers, not like us". It should be as inclusive as possible, while allowing all included groups to feel that it excludes all the other ones.
Of course you're passionate about your religion... wanna see how religions get started?
# Self reproduction
Obviously, this is the most important part of the meme. If your beliefs do not spread, they will die pretty quickly. Getting others to believe is vitally important, and many of the other elements are used to help this one.
It is good to tell others about this belief. Not only will it make them better people, but converting others helps justify the belief. If you have children, it is good to make them also follow this belief. Children are a blessing from God, and will also believe absolutely anything you tell them.
It can take a lot of work to convert some people, but it is always worth the effort as you are doing them good. Failing to spread the good news is a sin.
Example : the Roman Catholic church uses this to great effect, intentionally or not. The doctrinal bans on contraception and abortion ensure that as many babies as possible are born into religious families, and those babies will be brought up to share the same beliefs as their parents.
# Reward
Believing is good. It will make you a better person, and you will be rewarded in this life and the next. Good things that happen to you are blessings from God, and you should be grateful for them. Other good things should be seen as justification of the truth of the belief system and of God's approval of your actions. Anything positive that happens that does not have much to do with the belief can be claimed as a Miracle. Good harvests, childbirth, battles won, money donated etc. may all be seen as miracles, showing that God approves of you. Sayings such as "God helps those who help themselves" help reinforce this.
# Faith as a virtue
Belief without evidence is good. It is a sign of virtue, purity, trust and piety. In fact, if something is particularly hard to believe in, you require much stronger faith to accept it and are therefore a more virtuous person as a result. Belief despite contradictory objective evidence is especially good. Those who have trouble accepting seemingly arbitrary and implausible things are doubters, skeptics and unenlightened. They should take lessons from those of stronger faith who have no trouble believing.
Example:
"And the Son of God died, which is immediately credible because it is absurd. And buried he rose again, which is certain because it is impossible." - Tertullian, 2nd century christian
I've also heard (but not confirmed) that the Jewish Kosher rules work in a similar way - they are (seemingly) arbitrary, complicated, difficult to implement and hard to follow, so it requires considerable strength of faith to keep to a completely kosher diet.
# Reinforcement
Include many rituals and ceremonies that happen at regular intervals throughout the year. Eventually, these may be incorporated into the local traditions. They also provide a focal point for believers to concentrate on one particular aspect of the belief. Also, it can be good to include rituals which are expected to be performed at key stages of follower's lives. Birth/naming rituals, coming of age, weddings and funerals can all be given a religious aspect (and many will also become local traditions).
Almost anything positive can be attributed to God, and anything bad can be explained as being "mysterious", thus helping people understand that God is behind everything and even things which look bad might actually be good, if only we could understand it from God's point of view. Which, of course, we never can so we'll just have to trust God, won't we?
# Punishment
Failure to believe is bad. It makes you a bad person, and you will be punished in this life and the next. Note: helping non-believers to start believing is good, as it obviously means they will no longer deserve to be punished. Informing non-believers of the available punishments can help to convince them to believe (if you assume that threats of eternal torment are going to be plausible to someone who doesn't actually believe in an afterlife, and you deflect those awkward questions about why a loving god would want to see someone tortured forever).
Bad things that happen to you may be either
* A blessing from God, in order to strengthen your faith. You just have to understand the message.
* Punishment from God, for your sin.
* Attacks from the Devil, to attempt to turn you from God. You must strengthen your faith.
Remember - nothing, absolutely nothing, happens for no reason.
# Self defence
Many non-believers will laugh at your beliefs or persecute you because of them. This is a sign that your beliefs are in fact True. The non-believers are trying to destroy your faith because they know that this is so. Only those who share your beliefs are good people. Converting others to your beliefs increases the number of good people and reduces the number of bad people. People who leave the group are bad and should be avoided if they refuse to come back. For some people, the name "religion" is not satisfactory as it lumps your true beliefs with the false beliefs of other religions. Try using "relationship" or "reality" instead (e.g. "Don't make the mistake of calling Christianity a religion - it's reality").
You must also defend against attack from within. Encouraging belief in Mysterious Divine Purpose is useful for this, as are the following:
* Expelling doubters from the group. If they are no longer around, no-one will hear their arguments. Killing them is often not actually necessary, and even if the voices in your head tell you it's okay, remember that the godless government will likely frown on such activity.
* Claim that doubts are sent by the Devil (or as a test by God), and must be overcome. See Faith, above.
* Encourage people to accept the teachings of those who are qualified to interpret the message. (See Scriptural Interpretation below).
* Replies such as "It's a mystery", "We are not meant to know these things", "God works in mysterious ways", "Do not question these teachings", and "Oh, so you think you know better than God, do you?" are all good for deflecting tricky questions.
Revelations from Above allow you to adapt the beliefs to changing circumstances. For instance, maybe you're bigotted and don't like people from a certain minority group, but eventually your congregration expands so much that many of those people wish to join, and outsiders are making irrational claims about "racism" and "discrimination". What to do? Simple, have a Revelation that allows people from the minority to join (possibly with some small restrictions). This makes your movement appear to be more friendly, open-minded, and will keep the police out of your hair for a while longer.
Example : A Jehovah's Witness I once knew, when discussing evolution and creationism, told me that she had been warned to watch out for the particular bemused, incredulous smile that I was unable to keep off my face. The fact that I was amused by her beliefs reinforced her view that they were correct, as she had been told this would happen when discussing them.
# Self righteousness
God is your side. Believers are God's chosen people, and only those who believe will go into paradise. Things done in the name of God are, by definition, virtuous and just. God shares your feelings and what others call prejudices - this is how you know that you are right.
(This can lead to some of the most extreme problems with religious belief. A tiny minority of people who sincerely believe they are doing God's work see no problem in breaking "worldly" laws, as they answer only to a higher power - God himself. If you perceive governments and law enforcement agencies as tools of the devil, it makes it much easier to justify acts of violence against your "enemies")
# Scriptural interpretation
The holy words are mysterious, and cannot be correctly read by just anyone. They must be interpreted by a person who is trained, enlightened or gifted in these matters. A passage that appears to mean one thing, may actually mean something quite different, and only the interpreters can glean the correct meaning. These people can also determine which passages are literal truth, metaphorical, no longer relevant and which one of several contradictory passages is the true one. They must be listened to. Questioning official interpretation is the work of a heretic.
# Revenue
If the believers are encouraged to donate generously to the cause, this will help to spread it further. It will help pay for missionaries to travel to far-off lands, and local concerns such as soup-kitchens and other charities. If your temples are dripping with gold and silver, they are far more impressive to the poverty stricken locals who are lucky to have a handful of buttons to eat. Some religious leaders make the mistake of blowing their loot on fleets of Rolls-Royces - sometimes you can get away with this, but more often than not it can spell the end for your meme as people become disillusioned. Far better to spend the money on enormous Holy buildings throughout the land if you want the meme to continue for centuries.
People who have invested heavily in their religion are more likely to want to think of it as The One True Religion, so associating donations with piety, virtue and morality can only help the meme to survive. Giving to the poor is also good, as it improves your standing in the local community, and makes the poor people perceive the believers as good, kind people, and might encourage them to join up.
If the meme deals with revenue generation well enough, most followers will donate purely altruistically, and anyone who questions their motives will be rightly singled out as a cynic. Of course, the cash will still come flooding in.
# Wide coverage
The beliefs should be reasonably vague and ambiguous, to allow as many people as possible to find something in them that is acceptable. If you restrict the meme to a strict, clear definition it will never get very widespread. It needs to include elements which range from very touchy-feely, liberal to extremely hard-line, no compromise positions. This allows some people to perceive the belief as nice, gentle and uplifting but also allows room for those with extremist outlooks. You want to get everyone from tree-hugging hippies to crazed paranoid gunmen.
Preferably, as many possible points of view should be catered for, even those that appear to contradict one another. People can then refer to other members of the belief as "not real believers, not like us". It should be as inclusive as possible, while allowing all included groups to feel that it excludes all the other ones.
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joujou_84
GoOOooOONe
look i have read alot of these and ppl seem to be arguing alot instead od discussing. everyone has different beliefs and u cant force ur belief on someone, u can only reason with them, or else ur getting nowhere, which is where this thread seems to be going-nowhere. i believe in god. only coz it makes more sense. i grew up in a religious family yet my parents made me look at other religions, read about them and make up my own mind. not to offend anyone i read the bible and to me it didnt make sense, it seemed like a bunch of stories and i cant believe in religions with many gods that also dosent seem logic. now i have the option of believing in no god. but then wats my purpose in life. someone said im an accessory, well that dosent make sense. i dont believe that we were made from nothing, by nothing, to do nothing, eat, sleep drink and then die and go nowhere. now ull probably say im using ignorance to say that there is god. the fact is u cant prove god. its not something that one can comprehend. if u had a god that u could see, touch, kick, would that be a god to u? god is something that is absolute and not 3D. after alot of research i came to the conclusion that i cant prove god but i cant disprove him and so why not believ in his existenceinstead of reaching my grave and realising im screwed. u have nothing to lose if u believe, but u have everything to lose if u deny and then realise there in fact was a god.
Not-That-Bright
Andrew Quah
why is it that the atheists seem to be the only progressive people here...
i haven't heard an atheist come on and say 'STOP ARGUING!'...
Ok... first i'll give u the reasons why religion is bad...
"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "
It amounts to hedging your bets. The consequences upon your death are shown here:
I do not believe +God doesn't exist = Nothing
I believe +God doesn't exist = Nothing
I believe +God exists = Go To Heaven
I do not believe +God exists =Burn In Hell!
The worst case for the theist is no afterlife, the worst case for the atheist is an eternity in Hell. You can see why this appears to be a potentially convincing argument - it is sensible to choose the least-worst case.
The most obvious problems are:
* How do you know which God to believe in? There are plenty to choose from, and if you pick the wrong one, you could be in big trouble (e.g. what if you choose Jesus, but get to heaven only to come face-to-trunk with Ganesh?). This is known as the "Avoiding the wrong Hell problem". If a dozen people of different religions came to you with this question, how could you possibly choose between them? After all, many religions are quite specific that they are the One True Religion, and not any others. Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the light. None shall come to the Father except through me." [emphasis added] and no doubt most other religions make similar claims. If a Christian considers the Wager as strong support for his faith, surely he must accept that it is equally valid for all other religions when presented to himself?
* God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience?
* If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church, wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours and boring the hell out of people who really don't want to hear your Good News.
* Can you get away with just sort of generally believing in a Supreme Being, without specifically believing in one particular Deity? Probably not - God will still know what you're up to. Also, many Gods are quite particular about how they should be worshipped. Many born-again Christians will tell you that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - nothing more and nothing less. General-Deity-Belief and being nice simply won't do. Many people believe that all the different religions are merely alternative routes to the same destination. Nice and tolerant (if a little warm'n'fuzzy) though this may be, there is no valid reason to accept this stance over the fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist position : if the fundamentalists are right, then the un-Saved liberal theists are in just as much trouble as the nonbelievers.
* It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?
* It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the question is meaningless. You might as well say "Believe in God, or you'll... erm... go to Heaven anyway." In such a case, it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether the person believes or not.
i haven't heard an atheist come on and say 'STOP ARGUING!'...
Ok... first i'll give u the reasons why religion is bad...
now i'll explain to you your logic, and where it is flawed...
"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "
It amounts to hedging your bets. The consequences upon your death are shown here:
I do not believe +God doesn't exist = Nothing
I believe +God doesn't exist = Nothing
I believe +God exists = Go To Heaven
I do not believe +God exists =Burn In Hell!
The worst case for the theist is no afterlife, the worst case for the atheist is an eternity in Hell. You can see why this appears to be a potentially convincing argument - it is sensible to choose the least-worst case.
The most obvious problems are:
* How do you know which God to believe in? There are plenty to choose from, and if you pick the wrong one, you could be in big trouble (e.g. what if you choose Jesus, but get to heaven only to come face-to-trunk with Ganesh?). This is known as the "Avoiding the wrong Hell problem". If a dozen people of different religions came to you with this question, how could you possibly choose between them? After all, many religions are quite specific that they are the One True Religion, and not any others. Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the light. None shall come to the Father except through me." [emphasis added] and no doubt most other religions make similar claims. If a Christian considers the Wager as strong support for his faith, surely he must accept that it is equally valid for all other religions when presented to himself?
* God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience?
* If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church, wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours and boring the hell out of people who really don't want to hear your Good News.
* Can you get away with just sort of generally believing in a Supreme Being, without specifically believing in one particular Deity? Probably not - God will still know what you're up to. Also, many Gods are quite particular about how they should be worshipped. Many born-again Christians will tell you that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - nothing more and nothing less. General-Deity-Belief and being nice simply won't do. Many people believe that all the different religions are merely alternative routes to the same destination. Nice and tolerant (if a little warm'n'fuzzy) though this may be, there is no valid reason to accept this stance over the fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist position : if the fundamentalists are right, then the un-Saved liberal theists are in just as much trouble as the nonbelievers.
* It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?
* It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the question is meaningless. You might as well say "Believe in God, or you'll... erm... go to Heaven anyway." In such a case, it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether the person believes or not.
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Armani
Corporate Member
I believe... that you should let the faithful have their faith. What does it matter to a non-believer whether their faith is based on anything other than scientific logic? With the astronomical evidence you have provided you have proved your point, congradulations. Let those of non-violent religion remain as they are. I, being atheist/agnostic myself, truly do wish for something to believe in, i have just not found it and will continue looking.
Also, those who are believers, those who are optimistic have been interviewed and studies have shown that they are generally in better health than those who are non-believers. Let life take its course, whether we choose to live it through the guidelines of a religious texts or we take our own path... its our choice, and i stand by that.
Also, those who are believers, those who are optimistic have been interviewed and studies have shown that they are generally in better health than those who are non-believers. Let life take its course, whether we choose to live it through the guidelines of a religious texts or we take our own path... its our choice, and i stand by that.
Nobody is in better health solely because of religion. There will always be other factors.
The only reason we are arguing on this forum is that a discussion with the 'believers' as you say does get nowhere as it seems adequate to others to dicuss with people reasons for God's existence with no factual or reasonable evidence as to why. It isn't ok in a discussion to prove Gods existence to say "just cos he does' or 'i have faith' . This is ok if you want to do this for your own belief but it is inadequate as proof in a discussion as to his existence.
Yes everyone here is right, you have a right your own beliefs. But, if you don't want these contested or argued with then I suggest you don't make them open and public on a discussion panel or forum. The whole point of this is to argue the existence of a God. I think it is an unfair argument as we have to prove God doesn't exist whereas the believers can just say that well if u can't prove he doesn't, he must and that they have faith. Not a fair match.
Also, it isn't reasonable in life to base choices and religious beliefs blindly on the fear of nothingness. God will not accept that if he does exist. He want you to really believe and really love him. He doesn't want fearful people running to the concept of his existence because it sounds better than dying into nothing.
The only reason we are arguing on this forum is that a discussion with the 'believers' as you say does get nowhere as it seems adequate to others to dicuss with people reasons for God's existence with no factual or reasonable evidence as to why. It isn't ok in a discussion to prove Gods existence to say "just cos he does' or 'i have faith' . This is ok if you want to do this for your own belief but it is inadequate as proof in a discussion as to his existence.
Yes everyone here is right, you have a right your own beliefs. But, if you don't want these contested or argued with then I suggest you don't make them open and public on a discussion panel or forum. The whole point of this is to argue the existence of a God. I think it is an unfair argument as we have to prove God doesn't exist whereas the believers can just say that well if u can't prove he doesn't, he must and that they have faith. Not a fair match.
Also, it isn't reasonable in life to base choices and religious beliefs blindly on the fear of nothingness. God will not accept that if he does exist. He want you to really believe and really love him. He doesn't want fearful people running to the concept of his existence because it sounds better than dying into nothing.
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Armani
Corporate Member
Optimism and hope, that which religion brings is often the cause of better health.
thejosiekiller
every me
what do you have hope in then? i mean if you think that religion or faith is artificial
joujou_84
GoOOooOONe
I do believe in god, or else i wouldnt have converted. it takes complete belief for a person to convert, but can i ask something, u all seem to want to 'see" god or find evidence of his existence but have any of u eva questioned love. can u see love, show me love. i want to touch it. its impossible. u cant show me love or prove to me it exists. but everyone knows it exists. why? coz we feel it. now no one not evn an athiet can tell me they dont believe in love, yet why dont they argue it dosent exist just like they argue god dosent exist coz they cant see him. some of u keep saying only atheists are coming up with explanations as to why god dosent exist. can u see why its so hard to prove that he exists. its easy for an athiets to give me nintey nine reason as to why god dosent exist, but its not about evidence. its about a feeling in ur heart. god gave us brains to differentiate between ppl, ur not dumb. u have brains, god gave u this brain so that u can use it and think with it and realise u were not made from nothing to serve no purpose. not everything is going to be delivered to u on a silver plater, u have to use ur brain and think with it. now if ur not open to the idea of god then u will never accept it in ur heart so theres no point trying to find evidence until ur truly seeking itSophie777 said:
I have felt love. Of course you can't see it or touch it. But people do argue as to whether it actually exists, of course it doesn't exist as a concrete concept. It is what people refer to as a feeling they experience of 'loving' someone else and it has many different shapes and forms. Love can be experienced and felt it is something that is a concrete evidenced feeling for me. God is no such thing.
And, I have hope in medicine, in an outer logic of some sort I don't know what. I have hope in human kind, in my family and i have hope that life will turn out that way that I think it will. Hope isn't a religious concept and it is insulting for you to tell me that without a belief in God I shouldn't have hope in anything. Your way of life isn't right just because you and others live it you know. I am sure one of us will be wrong and neither of us will know this until we die. People have hope in the ability of humans to find cures for cancers.
And, I have hope in medicine, in an outer logic of some sort I don't know what. I have hope in human kind, in my family and i have hope that life will turn out that way that I think it will. Hope isn't a religious concept and it is insulting for you to tell me that without a belief in God I shouldn't have hope in anything. Your way of life isn't right just because you and others live it you know. I am sure one of us will be wrong and neither of us will know this until we die. People have hope in the ability of humans to find cures for cancers.