Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

The Church in Britain has a bloody and monstrous history, as do Churches all over the world. When this is pointed out to people, a common rebuttal is "Yes, but that was so long ago. We've learned from our mistakes and it could never happen again. You can't compare the Church today with the Church of the seventeenth century." I can't help thinking that the only reason it still is not happening is that the Church simply doesn't have the power and authority to persecute the population any more, not because the religion has magically changed from brutal and intolerant to gentle and caring. The Church, based on the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ, has slaughtered countless numbers of people across the world. What parts of the Bible or the teachings of Jesus have changed in the last couple of centuries? As the attitudes of people drift away from the extremes of religion, so the religion loses its authority over the lives of the people. Many people who describe themselves as Christians do not actually agree with much that the Churches teach, and the Churches slowly adapt themselves to this changing belief (so that they may still claim the allegiance of the people). The flock seems to be leading the shepherd...

As the population grows indifferent to the Church, the power that the Church holds over the country becomes less and less. Even so, the Church Of England is still the Established Church, and the potential for it to regain some of its former power remains. They are still a Monarchy, although the Queen has remarkably little power nowadays. In theory, she has the power to dissolve Parliament should she so desire, but that is unlikely to ever happen. The Royal family makes a living as Good-Will Ambassadors to other countries, a useful tourist attraction, and provides employment for tabloid gossip columnists, but that's about it. No other religion is entangled with the State in the way the that Church of England is. If the Church saw an opportunity to regain its former position, do you think it would pass up the chance lightly?

Religion thrives on persecution. Not the persecution of heretics this time, but the persecution of itself. If a Church perceives itself as being under attack, this gives it strength. People who were drifting away are encouraged to come back, rallying under the banner of their particular deity. Not only are they fighting for their local church, they are fighting for their GOD, and for all the other followers of that God. In Britain, the Church is not under attack, but is slowly eroding with the passing of time. The Clergymen cannot claim to be persecuted by people who don't give a hoot about whatever they have to say. They cannot say they are under attack from the Government when they are the Established Religion of the country. They can make noises about the rise of secularism, and the supposed decline in morality and virtue, but the simple truth is that people would rather watch telly, dig the garden or just stay in bed on Sunday than sit in a cold Church only to be told how sinful they are.

Which is probably why joujou thinks that it is 'tough' being a christian.... i hear this often, about how 'brave' you have to be to take up the challenge and be a christian. lol

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The material world is objective. Our beliefs do not change what it is. We can not proove anything by our beliefs or what is in our heart. We can only prove things by (1) studying the material world and coming to conclusions
(2) studying how ideas are developed (ie innate thoughts real or not, sensations refelect objective reality or something representing objective reality)

Just claiming god exist because you believe in him isnt cutting it. At least if you do beleive in god try to prove Innate thoughts are reall. That is a start. Not one of you Theist have done this. If you read any Christain Philosopher they try to prove innate thoughts exist, why? because if they do then how do we gain them. The christains believe God. If you want to debate about the reality of a higher form then you must attack from a philosophical backgrounds. Read som John Locke he is good.

We should pause this debate and commence at a latter time when the Thiest can start to debate gods existance on the grounds or epistemology. Untill then you are failing to prove anything.

That is what i had hoped for... I had hoped to find christians with logical well presented arguments that made me think, there seems to be a fair ammount of atheists like this on this board... not just saying 'GOD IS STUPID U IDIOTS!, no way does he exist' however i've failed to find many theists of the same nature... all i found were lost causes chanting in unison and nodding their heads to Billy Hinn. "I believe because i have faith! I have faith because there is a god!"

 

[joujou_84]

i wasnt talking about you sophie777. im not here to offend anyone. i was talking about me. it would be easier for me to continue the life i had before, mainly partying and not doing much, but it came to a point where i realised i was on the wrong path in life, leading me nowhere. we all have problems in life and not all turn to god. im sure uve had problems but u obviously havent turned to god and neither did at times. and it was not due to problems that i turned to god. it was research. i went to lectures in temples, mosques, churches. just like u i want answers so did i, or else y would u ppl bother with this thread. its obvious that u want answers. so forget this damn thing were not ur goin to find anything but ppl being rude to one another and go find answers. quite frankly i found all my answers in Islam and no matter wat anyone says to me im happy with my decison to convert and im not here to argue with anyone or preach to anyone but obviously everyone has their own beliefs and instead of lashing out at one another (i dont appreciate being called a coward) we should respect each others beliefs and discuss things not argue

 

[Beck the Bimbo]

Which is probably why joujou thinks that it is 'tough' being a christian.... i hear this often, about how 'brave' you have to be to take up the challenge and be a christian. lol

You and sophie777 have just proved joujou right...it is hard to be a christian when you get hacked to pieces by other people who arnt christians and dont share the same passion as you...How can you dis what you do not understand what you cannot feel for yourself...

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Ok for starters.... this thread was started TO keep us out of the other thread, we warned that we would be holding a debate.
Secondly, more christians have come in here and told us we're wrong.
Thirdly, I never have someone from another religion KNOCK ON MY DOOR and pester me.

Do you believe that atheists are not persecuted for their beliefs in a world where the ammount of people PROFESSING to believe in a god, or have a religious belief is much higher than those who don't?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yes, but if there was a problem i felt i should deal with... ie, i WANTED to help the african people i would go and help the african people, or donate them money, i wouldn't simply pray for them.

Religion thrives on persecution. Not the persecution of heretics this time, but the persecution of itself. If a Church perceives itself as being under attack, this gives it strength. People who were drifting away are encouraged to come back, rallying under the banner of their particular deity. Not only are they fighting for their local church, they are fighting for their GOD, and for all the other followers of that God. In Britain, the Church is not under attack, but is slowly eroding with the passing of time. The Clergymen cannot claim to be persecuted by people who don't give a hoot about whatever they have to say. They cannot say they are under attack from the Government when they are the Established Religion of the country. They can make noises about the rise of secularism, and the supposed decline in morality and virtue, but the simple truth is that people would rather watch telly, dig the garden or just stay in bed on Sunday than sit in a cold Church only to be told how sinful they are.

did you not read this? do you think it sounds like a fair description? if not, why?

 

[Sophie777]

Because we are intelligent and follow our heads and don't believe in something just cos we feel we have "no purpose for our existence"

You are getting hacked to pieces because you are pretentious and you feel the need to spread your 'wisdom'. God's word means nothing to us, we want facts. We do understand, my brother was a devout christian. I know how he felt, now he isn't. He tells me about how nothing, no logic, no sense could have talked him out of it because you actually feel a relationship with God. He says now, that he knows it was false, something he convinced himself was real.

No amount of logic will talk you out of attempting to put down our way of living by assuming you are right. We aren't wasting time, we are spreading satans words.

 

[Beck the Bimbo]

Ok for starters.... this thread was started TO keep us out of the other thread, we warned that we would be holding a debate.
Secondly, more christians have come in here and told us we're wrong.
Thirdly, I never have someone from another religion KNOCK ON MY DOOR and pester me.

Do you believe that atheists are not persecuted for their beliefs in a world where the ammount of people PROFESSING to believe in a god, or have a religious belief is much higher than those who don't?

I dont beleive anything is impossible just uncomprehndable...

 

[joujou_84]

Who keeps saying im a christain. i converted to Islam not christainity

 

[Comrade nathan]

You and sophie777 have just proved joujou right...it is hard to be a christian when you get hacked to pieces by other people who arnt christians and dont share the same passion as you...How can you dis what you do not understand what you cannot feel for yourself...

This was debate. The invitation was addressed to all people who wish to debate. The people who came in here in a philosophers unwritten code aggreed that they would not complain about being offended. Were you that stupid to think we were going to have a nice discussion were we all aggree. We wanted a debate to get fiery for people to stand their ground not waver all about in a apologitic dance as to not hurt anyone feelings. This debate was not meant for the likes of you. Truth must be brought out with a iron fist not a frail hand. We want debate not a tea party.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Who keeps saying im a christain. i converted to Islam not christainity

Islam.. christianity... I get confused sometimes.
Although, i will thank your religion to having NOT knocked on my door yet

 

[Beck the Bimbo]

Because we are intelligent and follow our heads and don't believe in something just cos we feel we have "no purpose for our existence"

You are getting hacked to pieces because you are pretentious and you feel the need to spread your 'wisdom'. God's word means nothing to us, we want facts. We do understand, my brother was a devout christian. I know how he felt, now he isn't. He tells me about how nothing, no logic, no sense could have talked him out of it because you actually feel a relationship with God. He says now, that he knows it was false, something he convinced himself was real.

No amount of logic will talk you out of attempting to put down our way of living by assuming you are right. We aren't wasting time, we are spreading satans words.

i didnt put down your way of living i upheld mine.

 

[joujou_84]

Islam.. christianity... I get confused sometimes.
Although, i will thank your religion to having NOT knocked on my door yet

and they never will. it seems to be a religion ppl seek and not one that has to be forced down ppl throats

 

[Beck the Bimbo]

Who keeps saying im a christain. i converted to Islam not christainity

I am sorry joujou i appologise...but still persectued and probably more so than me, you are a strong person to continue your faith in the world today.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I think the O was an accident...
She was trying to tell you how it's kinda annoying when despite all the logic pointing towards an obvious answer, (and none of you have debated the logic, you've all decided since you can't beat it to dismiss it, so i've assumed you think logic is on our side..) you'll continue living this way because you assume you are right. You assume that YOU are above logic.

Lol by the way beck, your sig....
'Every mans saviour is another mans Terrorist.'
No one would consider jesus a terrorist... so i guess he wasn't a saviour? lol
Dw, just jokes... i kno u can't base stuff on stupid sig quotes... lol

 

[Sophie777]

OH really????

Then what was "I could party all the time and not wonder about the purpose of my existence" or something to that effect? Huh? That is exactly putting down people who don't believe in God.

Sorry but you also said that God gives you purpose implying that without God, I have no purpose. This is incorrect, assuming and very demeaning.

 

[Sophie777]

I much prefer those who follow islam. They aren't publicly condescending and they don't force the words of their God. It's much more considerate.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

the sections of them who have power, influence over countries i believe represent the sort of state which england was 400 years ago... So although i see what is done in those countries in the religion having so much power... i don't see them as necessarily any worse than the christians who just did it earlier... (they've lost too much power now due to the laid back lifestyle of the west...)

However i'd say in Australia, as long as you don't challenge their beliefs... they keep them to themselves and go about their lives, which is much more respectful than the evangelical christians...

 

[Wilmo]

It was the time... historians look at the way the world was, it was terrible back then... people were looking for hope, they were looking for messiah when someone decided they were the messiah SOME (obviously not all.... the romans did kill him), decided that he was the messiah and the good news he was bringing that everyone good was going to live happily ever after and that their evil kings were going to burn in hell sounded like a good idea to the people of the time...

Jesus wasnt the kind of messiah people were waiting for. They expected the messiah would come in power and strength and smash the Roman oppressors and deliver their people and rule over them as King. If you are waiting for a soldier, why settle for a pacifist? Despite the authoritative way he explained the Scriptures, despite the miracles he performed, he was not what was expected and as such he was rejected.

God had told the people what kind of messiah to expect through the prophet Isaiah:

He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

The "good news" he brought did not promise we would live happily ever after if we were good. He came and lived to fulfill the law of God, which the people assumed they were keeping. The religious of the day could willingly hold grudges against someone, but because they had not murdered, they were doing right by God. Jesus came to say that it is not murder that God finds offensive, but the underlying feelings of contempt for another one of his creations. They had long awaited someone to fulfill the law, and that is what Jesus lived to do.

For those willing to follow this Christ, he warned them the road will be hard. Many will hate the followers of Christ because they hated him first. Paul, who once killed christians then became one. He tells christians in Corinth some of what he has faced for being a christian:

I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked.

Does this sound like a good life for a good person? Does it?!

Salvation does not offer hope of a good life if I do good... it offers a hope of a future Glory, one that I eagerly await...

"There are people starving in africa! lets go help them now!" - Atheist
"Lets pray to god to give them food!" - Theist

Think about it.

I dont need to think about it... it is a misrepresentation of theists based on many people not living out what they are so ready to say they fully believe in.

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

I am a theist, and yes I pray that God will help people. But my prayers would be not good if not supported by action. Surely i say "Lets pray to God to give them food!", but i combine that with "They're starving now, so lets DO something to help them now!"

 

[joujou_84]

most of u are not really knowledgable about this subject, actually some are too knowledgable however i found this debate on the net and its pretty long, save it somewhere and read it later coz its pretty good. its between an athiest and a muslim (who isnt preaching btw he is using pretty good logical examples, as is the athiest). i found it convienent coz the debate it titled "does god exist". see if u find the answers u guys are looking for.

http://www.madressa.org/events/Debate2003/Transcript.asp