Indonesian spying allegations (2 Viewers)

[newcastle2012]

Foreign aid goes both ways and foreign aid should NEVER EVER be used directly as leverage, it becomes very disingenuous when you start doing that.

So is threatening the safety of another nations citizens who are within that country. Point?

 

[isildurrrr1]

Ethics has everything to do with it if Australia started with human rights abuse you can bet that the UN and the rest of the world would be on our doorstep in a heartbeat.

In terms of mobilizing half a million troops in 48 hours that is ludicrous. Logistically they would have to organised personnel, arms, ammunition, army vehicles (Tanks, Jeeps, Missile Launchers and Artillery), naval vessels, planes, rations as well as construction and military equipment. Now the US ARMED FORCES has approx 1.429 million active personnel and quite a portion of those are currently overseas in foreign countries such as Japan, Germany, UK and South Korea as well as many more. To mobilize half a million personnel in 48 hours would be logistically impossible.

In terms of trade almost all of our trade goes through sea which is classified as economically exclusive which every vessel has freedom of navigation of now the Indonesians wouldn't be stupid enough to mess around with trade ships in this area as it would risk a embargo against them for breaches of international law particularly the law of the sea.

Militarily they may have a moderate army but they are nowhere near the same quality as ours they spend $8.4 billion dollars on their military annually we spend $25.3 billion annually meaning our armed forces are much heavily equipped, trained and prepared than theirs. On top of that their main suppliers are Australia, USA, China, UK, South Korea and other EU members now they are all much more heavily allied with Australia than Indonesia not only due to prior assistance and support but also because Australia controls an absolute ton of metals which any nation needs to continue a war of any type e.g. WW1 and WW2 see how desperate Britain was for metals when they couldn't get any of them for the war effort. Anyway over all their military may be bigger than ours but our army absolutely blows theirs away in terms of quality of everything else available to us and manpower doesn't always mean victory e.g. Germany in WW2

I guess somebody forgot about US putting 500k boots on the ground in Saudi Arabia during gulf war 1 within 72 hours 20 years ago. If the US really needed to, they have the capabilities of hauling ass and a carrier strike group is pretty much it's own mini-army capable of running its own operations independently.

Australia doesn't give a shit about human rights, look at how we treat the asylum seekers and the UN didn't really do jack shit. UN doesn't really do jack shit in general when it comes to human rights, so much for being on someone's "doorstep" when you look at countries like NK, Russia, China and the whole middle east. Australia always have aided Indonesia, their security interests are exactly the same as ours. Shit they hated communism so much they practically started killing or throwing anyone in jail who they thought was a communist. Human rights goes to shit when the security arena is concerned, just like how people's right to privacy has gone to shit with intelligence phone tappings.

I don't know who you've been talking to, but hypothetically indonesia pitted against australia with no one else involved, Australia would be extremely fucked (according to many of my friends in defence). Sure we got a quality military, but Indonesia isn't that far behind and when you're outnumbered 4-1 by number of ships alone, you're kinda fucked. Su-27 jets aren't exactly age old fighters either, they're supposed to be pitted against F15's and can reasily dominate an airspace against our super hornets. And what are you talking about manpower means victory? The germans were heavily outnumbered, under-supplied and still held out so long.

Hypothetical's aside, it's still VERY embarrassing some 29 year old working for the NSA can pretty much leak out the largest intelligence activity in the history of mankind. Countries spy on each other all the time that's a given, shit an embassy/consulate is just one spook base anyway, it's whether or not you get caught and how you handle it.

 

[newcastle2012]

A good number of those troops were already there prior to the hostilities, while over the months from August there was a consistent military buildup and it wasn't till February of the next year that America led the assault which rid the country of Iraqi troops within 100 hours. It wasn't like hey guys 500,000 of us are here within 3 days but a buildup over months both prior and post the initiation of hostilities.
Australia likes to portray tho that we do in fact care and I can assure you that human rights is very important if you want to stay in power e.g. Saddam Hussein. Anyway I have been talking to mates who are also in the military. Quality armed forces are exactly that quality our armed forces are still significantly better equipped in every way and numbers mean nothing against quality armed forces e.g. Russian defeats during WW1 and to a lesser extent WW2. The Germans anyway were heavily outnumbering every other enemy (except Russia but their troops were meatshields at the time) until America came in and even then still couldn't defeat Britain in the Battle for Britain and Africa at Tobruk their troops were no doubt good but were out matched through quality and determination. Anyway pitted that would be highly hypothetical one on one as NZ and the US would definetely back us up and I assume China would get involved to prevent Indonesia capturing our metal rich mines.

I agree however with the embarrasement caused by Edward Snowden bet everyone apart from the terrorists want him dead for all the stuff he has leaked seriously he is a traitor to his country and I wouldn't at all be surprised if he died in an "accident" facilitated by the US.

Anyway look lets just call this a draw and move on it's been to long and we both have our merits but neither of us is going to agree. Anyway you are persistent and you appear to be quite intelligent regardless of our differences I have enjoyed debating with you but I think this particular thread has been over debated. Anyway I will not be debating anymore with you in this thread perhaps another?