Israel and Palestine (3 Viewers)

[BritneySpears]

Re: Israel & Palestine

No if you read the article, the kids there want a good afterlife, like everyone who believes in religion does. Terrorism is forbidden in Islam, a fact which you keep ignoring. but they have been taught by older people that it is right. And since they have no other way of protecting themselves, why should they stop?

they attack to survive. In the article it mentions a few people who are fighting both to survive and for a better afterlife. The whole hing about the afterlife is what they may have wrong, since in Islam you are not allowed to kill an innocent.

So Islam promised a good afterlife to suicide bombers? That explains a lot why almost all suicide bombers are muslims. They are promised a good afterlife!(according to shiftylilbrat). So who are those OLDER people who taught them that Islam promise a good afterlife to suicide bombers? Would not that be their religious leaders? You confirmed everything what people have been saying, Islam is the root cause of terrorism.

People misunderstand different texts, if you are so into Islam, why dont you come down to Lakember, and i'll get you some sheik who speaks english to tell you all about it, and you can ask him everything in person?

You say women in Islam are being abused, Mani and myself are here telling you we arent, so it isnt all women, there are women from different cultures, religions and race who are being abused, it has nothing to do with religion. Since both of us are telling you it isnt a part of Islam, and i know hundreds of people who will agree that they have never been abused, or that Islam has anything to do with abuse. Sam and any other Muslim will also agree. Yet you [a non-Muslim] think you know more about the religion than us, when you dont even understand what is going on.

Do you see me trying to understand Judaism? Do you see me making up stuff about the religion? Do i pretend to know what the religion is about, then get a whole bunch of sources saying 'this is what Jews believe, they are are idiots'?

This is like me saying since a priest raped little kids in QLD, then all christians do the same, or that it is a part of Christianity. Or that since the Israeli President Moshe Katsav was a rapist then all Israelis are rapists.

NONE of this has anythign to do with race or religion. Just a bunch of idiots you misuse power, or else misunderstand some religious texts.

yes there are many interpretations of religious texts and that is exactly what muslim use it as a basis to oppress women in almost all muslim countries. I do not think the Quran mean it for men to beat women whenever they want and subjugate women, however, that same text is used allover islamic countries and communities to oppress women and subjugate them, as your own source already said it so.

Just because you are not abused does not mean 500+ million women in islamic countries are not. In fact, women in Iran, Saudi Arabia are extremely disadvantaged as we speak under Islamic Law, that is Sharia Law under the guise of Quran and you know that. Driving is banned for women in Saudi Arabia as this article from a saudi muslim scholar said

senior Islamic scholars in the Kingdom had already issued fatwas (religious edicts) saying that women driving cars was sinful and not permissible in Islam. “My statements were misused. This is not the right way for those who search for the truth,” he said. http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=38586&d=25&m=1&y=2004

That clearly said NOT PERMISSIBLE IN ISLAM. You still go on to deny it has nothing to do with Islam, yes it does, it has everything to do with Islam, you own religious scholars said so.

Another point, Yes priests abused children. But do we hear them quoting the Bible to derive their authority to abuse children? Did they use biblical Law to justify their crime against children?. On the other hand, many muslim countries use Islamic Law called Sharia Law, derived from Quran, Hadith, Sunna etc and yes men have the right to beat women and are not punished. Worse, women needs to have four witness if they want to prove rape case under Islamic Law which means, men can rape women as long as there are 3 or less men around.

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

I didnt mean it to be offensive, sorry. But its simple, if someone came upto you shot your children, and a whole bunch of other kids, then said sorry i was aiming at someone else, would you think its ok? Wouldnt you be angry at them? Wouldnt you want revenge?

if i was hiding behind my children, like some palestinians have been shown to do, then i would have no right to complain. if i was to tell my kid to blow himself up on a bus, then i would have no right to complain. they don't invent the stories of parents using their children as shields. whether you believe them or not is your perogative.

 

[BritneySpears]

Re: Israel & Palestine

So, thats what your school back home in israel has been teaching you?? TO swear at the prophet and at islam.

No I am echoing the statement made by Ayaan Hirshi Ali who is a born and bred muslim herself who lived in Somalia and Saudi Arabia (muslim countries). She called her own prophet Muhammad a Paedophile. No doubt about it.

Im not going to waste my time and discuss with you why women are NOT opressed in islam because they are not, and im not going to help you to divert the attention from palestine and israel to islam, which is what you are trying to do.

I am answering Shifty's question, we have a valid and wholesome discussion if you are too ignorant to get involved, yes, stay out. You are too immature to have a meaningful discussion. Islam, particularly suicide bombings and palestinian terrorists organisations such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad are integral part of Palestinian and Israel issue, stop trying to avoid it.

2ndly, you should stop dealing with these big things, which you obviously know nothing about.
Is that what your religion and school taught you?
Have you ever heard us swear at a rabbi?
Have you ever heard us swear at your prophets?
Have you ever heard us talking about the torah in a bad way?

The answer is obviously no!!

Big things provide bigger fodder to discuss, we are not here to make baseless claim and make up rape stories to discredit someone like you did. Everytime your religion is discussed you go bersek and restless. We do not live in muslim country where a mere criticism of Islam or your prophet is a crime and death sentence. We live in Australia where we can dig deep into the heart, dark, stinky and hidden side your religion and pull out as much dirt and filth as we like, expose it to the world, whether you like it or not.

Islam and muslim parents obviously taught all their muslim kids to respect rabbis's, to respect and love all prophets and to respect the torah, bible, and quran.

Heba, and sam demonstrated this fact, because not once did they reply to you and talk about your rabbis, in the way you talk about hilaly.
Not once, did they talk about judaisim in a bad inapropriate way, although they could easily dig up a articel off the internet and say, here you go a jewish guy slapped his wife, therefore the torah allows jews to slap thier wife.
Not once did they mention mosses and the other prophets you believe in, and make up stories about them, which what you've been doing to the Prophet Muhamad(PBUH)

Wrong, it was Sam04U who always brought Torah in to this discussion. Quran and Islam was a response to him. And now you all get nervous, angry and pissed when the truth is exposed. Furthermore, they do not use Torah Laws in Israel for criminal offence, and domestic violence is a punishable offence.

We never said any of that, we actually took the time to research and to explain to you all the bad and huge accusations that you've been accusing Islam and the Prophet, heba, even offered to take you to a shiek so you can ask him whatever you want. None of us used your low, corrupted and crooked way in debatting.

I not only accused it but I actually proved you wrong with texts from your own book Quran. Furthermore, Every accusation I made are just a repeat of what your fellow muslim Ayaan Hirshi Ali already said. You are scared of talking about Islam.

Your just a sick and twisted person, and your just a freaking liar, who no one is willing to take seriously and no one will ever believe you. You are seriously a disgrace to the jewish community

Every critic of your religion is a sick , twisted person and a liar who deserve to be killed according to muslims. No wonder Ayaan Hirshi Ali, a Muslim who speak out against abuse of women in Islam is already under death threat by muslims (probably Maniella and Shifty ) By the way why do muslims always made death threat against anyone who criticise their religion?

 

[onebytwo]

Re: Israel & Palestine

I not only accused it but I actually proved you wrong with texts from your own book Quran. Furthermore, Every accusation I made are just a repeat of what your fellow muslim Ayaan Hirshi Ali already said. You are scared of talking about Islam.

sorry, but Ayaan Hirshi Ali is NOT a muslim

 

[wrxsti]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Ok firstly im not a muslim, but I find it amazing how ignorant you “Britany Spears” can be about this issue… its amazing how blind some of you people can be….. especially “Britany Spears”. Firstly those things concerning Prophet Muhammed… My Studies of Religion teacher In yr 11 was a muslim. and the first thing he did was he answered all of our questions about Islam. EVERYBODY TAKES EVERYTHING OUT OF CONTEXT. what is morally acceptable in one time and place may not be in another. Don’t go around giving your bullshit about paedophilia… Because quite honestly. nobody is dumb enough to believe a single word your saying. Muslim girls and women aren’t persecuted you just like to believe that those women are, you ever been to a muslim country? you ever seen them being persecuted? oh wait… no…. you just hear stories………. Why not try uploading the entire chapter of the Extracts you post up? see what they say then…. .. I could post up 1000 things about my own religion and the Jewish religion and take them out of context and there would be nothing you could say. Unlike the bible, or torah. the Quran is the only book which has never been changed or altered in any way …….. There is a reason why Islam is the largest growing Religion in the world. and yer…… its because “they give women no rights”………. lol how pathetic . when ignorant, stupid people such as youself see things on their face value without referring to deep meaning (or even reading a few verses before or after) that is when we get your corrupted views.And also I would like to add… I could not keep myself from laughing after reading the bottom of your profile thing… “We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”lolllllllllllllll ok lets think about this logically.. in the recent Israel Lebanon war…. you have Israel with the most advanced military capabilites in the world… killing HUNDREDS OF CHILDREN… and what about the boming in Qana? oh wait. the country with the most advanced military capabilites in the world made an accident…. of course they did… don’t you find it funny that the “Terrorist group” Hezbollah had no navigation and no satellite tracking of missiles or whatever… and they did not kill more than 10 children (note I don’t know the exact number)… Don’t you find this extremely “unusual”….. mmhmmm yes……….. Israel “Seeking Peace”… yep……and finally… don’t we all find it even more amazing how Israel… attempting to weed out Hezbollah attempts to bomb and successfully bombs an entire country… and Don’t we find it even more amazing that Israel still has thousands of Arab Prisoners and CHILDREN mind you… Held in prisons on STOLEN LAND.. without Trial... im waiting for somebody to say Common sense aint that common after all…………Don’t worry….. not everybody is dumb… theres a few people out there who can see whats going on

 

[wrxsti]

Re: Israel & Palestine

May i also add.... i had this Jewish friend..... who said. that a year ago her parents sent her to Israel where she went on this special camp and on this "special" camp they would show them all videos... and feed them all this crap about Jews being "the greatest race in the world" and how no other race is equivalent...... Now if we were to interpret this according to "Birtany Spears" and if this is was concerning Muslims...... what would you say? ..... "See Islam believes in brain washing its youth to do suicide bombings... they teacher ALL their children to believe they are superior which is why they "persecute" women...blah blah" everybody knows these kinds of stuff exists.......... i would like to see somebody try defend what they do......... As a side note.... they are extreme Christians, Jews and Muslims...... what i see in this thread is the generalisation of all Muslims and Jews by the actions of a few..... which can be expected when you have some ignorant pepole.....

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

if i was hiding behind my children, like some palestinians have been shown to do, then i would have no right to complain. if i was to tell my kid to blow himself up on a bus, then i would have no right to complain. they don't invent the stories of parents using their children as shields. whether you believe them or not is your perogative.

What about the children taken into interegation for no reason? What about the way they are treated by the Israelis? do you only side with the Israelis and ignore anything they do which is bad?

How would you know that every mother and father told their children to blow themselves up?

yeah i read the articles, but it doesn't mean i believe them flat out. i've heard stories of kids trying to get arrested because life at home was so shit, that the prisons where they are "forced" to go to schoool 5 days a week, and get 3 meals a day is better. who do you blame, the parents who turn their kids into monsters, or the society tyring to protect themselves from other peoples hatred?

and in the end, this is what its always going to come down to heba.

you belive israel shouldn't exist or isn't legitimate, i/we don't. and neither of us are going to change that belief are we?

Sure. Evidence. I could hear stories as well. As i said the parents may have nothing to do with this. But some do and those who teach their children to blow themselves up etc well its their fault, however some are normal people, which you simply ignore. Some may be annoyed by that fact that they see children/women etc dying and its always an 'accident' or maybe they are being influenced by others. In the end these people have a reason behind what theyre doing. Nomatter who told them to do it they still have that reason.

Well if you change it will make everything easier

So Islam promised a good afterlife to suicide bombers? That explains a lot why almost all suicide bombers are muslims. They are promised a good afterlife!(according to shiftylilbrat). So who are those OLDER people who taught them that Islam promise a good afterlife to suicide bombers? Would not that be their religious leaders? You confirmed everything what people have been saying, Islam is the root cause of terrorism.

Where did i say that in that account. Also have you even read every word i posted or do you just quit after one sentence?

Why dont you quote the Quran where it encourages terrorism then we'll continue with this stupidity.

[use the colour red next time not pink, thanks]

yes there are many interpretations of religious texts and that is exactly what muslim use it as a basis to oppress women in almost all muslim countries. I do not think the Quran mean it for men to beat women whenever they want and subjugate women, however, that same text is used allover islamic countries and communities to oppress women and subjugate them, as your own source already said it so.

Just because you are not abused does not mean 500+ million women in islamic countries are not. In fact, women in Iran, Saudi Arabia are extremely disadvantaged as we speak under Islamic Law, that is Sharia Law under the guise of Quran and you know that. Driving is banned for women in Saudi Arabia as this article from a saudi muslim scholar said

Ok then. Where does it say in the Quran that woman cannot drive. Quote it

Oh but if its Islam which teaches it then ALL women should be treated this way.

And can you quote all this from the Quran? all of these disadvantages. I want to know every one of them!

Another point, Yes priests abused children. But do we hear them quoting the Bible to derive their authority to abuse children? Did they use biblical Law to justify their crime against children?. On the other hand, many muslim countries use Islamic Law called Sharia Law, derived from Quran, Hadith, Sunna etc and yes men have the right to beat women and are not punished. Worse, women needs to have four witness if they want to prove rape case under Islamic Law which means, men can rape women as long as there are 3 or less men around.

How should i know, maybe they did do i look like an expert on Chritianity and Judaism? No. So they all sit down and tell the woman, 'look/READ this in the Quran it says im allowed to bash you, so i will'?

What about the non-Muslims who bash their wives, daughters etc? I heard of a man who forced his step daughter to become a sex slave [in the news a few days ago] he wasnt Muslim. Oh wait...maybe he read the Quran and thought it was ok?

What dont you want me to get a sheik to translate all this for you? Why not?

I am answering Shifty's question, we have a valid and wholesome discussion if you are too ignorant to get involved, yes, stay out. You are too immature to have a meaningful discussion. Islam, particularly suicide bombings and palestinian terrorists organisations such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad are integral part of Palestinian and Israel issue, stop trying to avoid it.

lol we are? then why do you ignore the facts?

How are they?

Every critic of your religion is a sick , twisted person and a liar who deserve to be killed according to muslims. No wonder Ayaan Hirshi Ali, a Muslim who speak out against abuse of women in Islam is already under death threat by muslims (probably Maniella and Shifty ) By the way why do muslims always made death threat against anyone who criticise their religion?

wtf i dont speak against my religion coz i know its the right one. And as long as i believe in it and follow it i'll be in heaven [hopefully] while you...lets not go there.

What death threats? We defend our religion, coz we LOVE it, something you dont understand. Also in Islam we are meant to defend anything bad said about the prophet [pbuh] if you read the Quran you would have understood this already

sorry, but Ayaan Hirshi Ali is NOT a muslim

Why did you have to say that? He was going sooo well !

[Its Hirsi, dont listen to Aryan]

Well wrxsti nearly everything you said has been said but nobody beleieves it, Israel is the perfect place to live [according to a few people here, i can even quote!]

Jay [anyone else] could you please send me a few sites/book names whatever to do with Judaism please. [if you know any ] thanks

 

[mr EaZy]

Re: Israel & Palestine

lol, the attacks on islam over political issues that exist in only one part of the muslim world just shows how ignorant these people are and their underlying motives. you dont see us attacking judaism do you?

keep religion and politics separate.

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

What death threats? We defend our religion, coz we LOVE it, something you dont understand. Also in Islam we are meant to defend anything bad said about the prophet [pbuh] if you read the Quran you would have understood this already

the fatwa against salman rushdie, edicted by the Ayatollah Khomenei for instance maybe? you really honestly deny that islamic people make death threats because people say things? theo van gogh was killed for it. you advocate this sort of punishment?

insane numbers of people have been killed by islamic people for disagreeing publicly with the religion, or have had threats of attempts on their lives. do you really honestly deny that?

eazy, in this region, religion is politics.

heba, until you can show proof, thats all they are stories. believe what you want, but without proof it means nothing. your descriptions are "some may", "some might". until you can say some do, its not the same. if a child commits an adult crime, then they need to be punished approprately. if a kid is messed up enough to want to blow himself up, then he deserves to be in an institution, so that he can't do it. if you want to slap him on the wrists and let him back to his parents, then fine, let him back into a neighbourhood that has your family in it, but thats how people get killed. its not done in australia like that, why should it be done anywhere else?

What about the children taken into interegation for no reason? What about the way they are treated by the Israelis? do you only side with the Israelis and ignore anything they do which is bad?

How would you know that every mother and father told their children to blow themselves up?

what does that have to do with them using their kids as human shields? does some people being interrogated because they committed a heinous crime mean you can sacrifice your kids?

what does it matter what their parents have told them to do. if they believe it then they'll try, and then they need to be punished or cured. if they don't, then they wont. like the kid who was caught crying, walking towards the checkpoint, and who surrenderd. you don't release children back into an abusive environment, which is a damn good description of the homes that people who want to kill themselves come from.

Some may be annoyed by that fact that they see children/women etc dying and its always an 'accident' or maybe they are being influenced by others. In the end these people have a reason behind what theyre doing. Nomatter who told them to do it they still have that reason.

there is no justification for blowing yourself up on a bus filled with schoolchildren. there is nothing you can say that will justify that. no matter what they belive, their reason in wrong, and inhumane. and i don't see how anyone can justify it.

Well if you change it will make everything easier

easier for whom? your belief condemns 6 million jews to their deaths. possibly more. i have no reason to change my views on the subject. on the other hand, if you truly want peace, you would be willing to compromise, like israel has been trying to for 60 years.

books on what to do with judaism? what do we believe? why do we believe it? what are you interested in?

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

what does that have to do with them using their kids as human shields? does some people being interrogated because they committed a heinous crime mean you can sacrifice your kids?

Nothing which is my point. These are children being interrogated by Israeli soldiers, for no reason. What do you expect them to do when they come out of gaol? be happy the Israelis took them in?

what does it matter what their parents have told them to do. if they believe it then they'll try, and then they need to be punished or cured. if they don't, then they wont. like the kid who was caught crying, walking towards the checkpoint, and who surrenderd. you don't release children back into an abusive environment, which is a damn good description of the homes that people who want to kill themselves come from.

You say parents are teaching their children to die for Islam, by killing innocent civilians, im saying its probably some leader of some group their live near who is encouraging it. The parents may be telling them, but this isnt always the case.

True. If they were being taught to become terrorists then send them to a different place, but by a different place this doesnt mean a gaol which they will be treated like crap.

there is no justification for blowing yourself up on a bus filled with schoolchildren. there is nothing you can say that will justify that. no matter what they belive, their reason in wrong, and inhumane. and i don't see how anyone can justify it.

Anyone can. they are trying to reclaim their land which was stolen, they have people who have died for this land, they are being arrested and abused for no reason [maybe not all] but in the end the Israeli soldirs are innocent, they treat them worse then they would treat animals, they kill innocent children, they do alot of crap, and you defend them. You make it out like the Palestinians are the only ones doing these things, when the Israelis keep killing children and name it an 'accident' but it really is one...how could it not be one when they are the ISRAELI SOLDIERS!!!

What about the article which speaks about the soldiers who bombed a building which two terrorists were in, but there were children also inside. They thought it was tough, but better the terrorists die coz they would have killed alot of Israelis if they didnt. so in the end who cares about these Palestinian children?!

What life do they have to live for? Why should they treat others other than the way they are being treated? Why has Israel done for them? You say some would rather be there than anywhere else, post links.

easier for whom? your belief condemns 6 million jews to their deaths. possibly more. i have no reason to change my views on the subject. on the other hand, if you truly want peace, you would be willing to compromise, like israel has been trying to for 60 years.

Oh RIGHT they have been trying to compromise, by killing people ..yeah man ..oh wait what about them taking the Palestinians homes/land? No that was bought...so where is this money? Yeah Palestine never existed in the first place.

6 million? :S holocaust? :S

books on what to do with judaism? what do we believe? why do we believe it? what are you interested in?

Anything, and everything you know about. If its in detail then that would be better. Ok thanks

Id like to see how the Israelis would feel if the Palestinins killed more than 100 Israeli children then said it was a mistake:|

Edit: i know some parents teach their children to become 'terrorists' :| You people like twisting my words around:S

Edit2:

the fatwa against salman rushdie, edicted by the Ayatollah Khomenei for instance maybe? you really honestly deny that islamic people make death threats because people say things? theo van gogh was killed for it. you advocate this sort of punishment?

insane numbers of people have been killed by islamic people for disagreeing publicly with the religion, or have had threats of attempts on their lives. do you really honestly deny that? [/qoute]

Nope:| Would you be fine with people insulting your religion in public or private? If then maybe you dont believe in it?! Anyone who believes in their religion will be angry if some idiot who knows nothing about their religion comes out and bags it. the whole death thing is wrong. Not saying its right.

If one Muslim does something doesnt mean the rest do the same. In Islam the female is supposed to wear the hijab, do all femal Muslims wear it? No. not everyone follows what the Quran says to the word, and some say they do but just change what is being said to support what they do.

about the Palestinian children, i heard like last year this woman called some gov [i think the Israelis] and told them that her son was going to blow himself up. And they delt with it. It does happen, children are influenced. Some begin to believe what theyre told. Some parents do try to stop them, others encourage. Some children even do it coz they think it is the right thing [coz of the way theyre treated]

 

[physician]

Re: Israel & Palestine

...on the other hand, if you truly want peace, you would be willing to compromise, like israel has been trying to for 60 years.

I have a few questions:

- What compromise are we specifically referring to here? (i.e. over the 60 year period)

- Do u believe the Israeli occupation is Legal or illegal?

- What should be done (or what is being done) to compensate all the Palestinians who were forced out of their land in the past, for example the majority of the 70,000 inhabitants forced out of Jafa (Yafa) on the 13th May 1948.

eazy, in this region, religion is politics.

I think Mr EaZy has a point. Another question:

- Was the creation of Israel based on religious principles/teachings? If so, I'd like to be informed of these principles/teachings.

We all know that Palestine is sacred for Christians, Jews and Muslims, but IS religion the sole problem behind the violence?

You do realise Palestinians comprise of both Christians and Muslim I hope?

 

[BritneySpears]

Re: Israel & Palestine

What about the children taken into interegation for no reason? What about the way they are treated by the Israelis? do you only side with the Israelis and ignore anything they do which is bad?

How would you know that every mother and father told their children to blow themselves up?

We know for a fact that NO jewish children blew themselves up in the history of israel. They are not brainwahsed like arabs kids with a false promise of better after life and such for suicide bombings or killing anyone.

Where did i say that in that account. Also have you even read every word i posted or do you just quit after one sentence?

Why dont you quote the Quran where it encourages terrorism then we'll continue with this stupidity.

[use the colour red next time not pink, thanks]

I read every sentence and the more I read the more I am convinced how Islam radicalised people to commit terrorists acts, such as suicide bombings with a promise of better life after death as you said.

Ok then. Where does it say in the Quran that woman cannot drive. Quote it

Oh but if its Islam which teaches it then ALL women should be treated this way.

And can you quote all this from the Quran? all of these disadvantages. I want to know every one of them!

Exactly where does it say in Quran? But Why does your religious leaders made such laws banning driving by women calling it sinful and NOT permissible under Islam? You have such ridiculous Islamic Laws and it is your duty to prove why you have such laws. And that is what is wrong with Islam, allowing its religious leader to make up laws which are NOT even in Quran, abuse a text from Quran to abuse women (which you still denies).

How should i know, maybe they did do i look like an expert on Chritianity and Judaism? No. So they all sit down and tell the woman, 'look/READ this in the Quran it says im allowed to bash you, so i will'?

What about the non-Muslims who bash their wives, daughters etc? I heard of a man who forced his step daughter to become a sex slave [in the news a few days ago] he wasnt Muslim. Oh wait...maybe he read the Quran and thought it was ok?

What dont you want me to get a sheik to translate all this for you? Why not?

Did Non-Muslim men who bash their wives and forced step daughter get their authority from Christian Law? No, they did not. And It is a criminal offence to abuse women in all forms in this country or any other country (except islamic countries). On the otherhand, under Islam, abuse of Women is perfectly OK because they have a Law that allows it, derived directly from Quran.

wtf i dont speak against my religion coz i know its the right one. And as long as i believe in it and follow it i'll be in heaven [hopefully] while you...lets not go there.

What death threats? We defend our religion, coz we LOVE it, something you dont understand. Also in Islam we are meant to defend anything bad said about the prophet [pbuh] if you read the Quran you would have understood this already

yes it seems alright on the book, but in practice the most violent religion the world has ever seen, its followers supports murder, suicide bombings, terrorists, abuse against women, non muslims etc.

Did you know Theo Van Gogh was brutally murdered by your fellow muslim in broad daylight in the street of Amsterdam by your fellow muslim? Did you know Ayaan Hirshi Ali received thousands of death threat from your fellow muslim for speaking abuse against women in Islam? Did you know Isioma Daniel was ordered to be killed by your religious leader for saying Muhammad wouls choose one of Miss world contestant. Did you know speaking against Muhammad alone is a capital offence in most islamic countries?

You defend your religion because you CANNOT criticise anything without being threatened with Death.

 

[BritneySpears]

Re: Israel & Palestine

sorry, but Ayaan Hirshi Ali is NOT a muslim

Ayaan Hirshi Ali was a muslim but not anymore, because she knew that islam full of violence and oppression against women in which she herself was and is still a victim.

She was a born and bred muslim, aftr witnessing so many abuse committed against women by islam she do not want to be associated with an evil cult anymore. Even so you still threatened with death for exposing the evil of Islam.

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Here is the link showing that the kids want to be in the jail, or their parents want them to. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1528104.ece so there you go, life is so shit under palestinian authority, in the palestinian side of the country, they would PREFER to be in jail in israel. doesn't say much for palestine does it?

Nothing which is my point. These are children being interrogated by Israeli soldiers, for no reason. What do you expect them to do when they come out of gaol? be happy the Israelis took them in?

if they are arrested for something, then they aren't being interrogated for nothing. they are being interrogated for commiting a crime. i seriously doubt that there are innocent people in israeli jails just because they are palestinian. how many people convicted of crimes fess up and say they did it after they are released? basically none, because they feel no remorse. so no, i don't think there is anything wrong there.

ou say parents are teaching their children to die for Islam, by killing innocent civilians, im saying its probably some leader of some group their live near who is encouraging it. The parents may be telling them, but this isnt always the case.

True. If they were being taught to become terrorists then send them to a different place, but by a different place this doesnt mean a gaol which they will be treated like crap.

so where should they be sent? should israel set up homicide bomber rehab centres? why the hell should they. these people want to die, i have no sympathy for them. you want to die, go somewhere and kill yourself, and if you want to take 100 people with you, then go to hell. but you don't get to complain when you're caught, and put in a jail.

Anyone can. they are trying to reclaim their land which was stolen, they have people who have died for this land, they are being arrested and abused for no reason [maybe not all] but in the end the Israeli soldirs are innocent, they treat them worse then they would treat animals, they kill innocent children, they do alot of crap, and you defend them. You make it out like the Palestinians are the only ones doing these things, when the Israelis keep killing children and name it an 'accident' but it really is one...how could it not be one when they are the ISRAELI SOLDIERS!!!

What about the article which speaks about the soldiers who bombed a building which two terrorists were in, but there were children also inside. They thought it was tough, but better the terrorists die coz they would have killed alot of Israelis if they didnt. so in the end who cares about these Palestinian children?!

What life do they have to live for? Why should they treat others other than the way they are being treated? Why has Israel done for them? You say some would rather be there than anywhere else, post links.

still doesn't justify their actions. they are monsters, there are no two ways about it. palestinians ARE the only ones glorifying it. thet CELEBRATE when people blow themselves up. and if your 'terrorists' are too cowardly to fight in the open, and they hide and put their people in danger, then blame the terrorists. you don't get to blame israel for fighting a war the palestinians and arabs started. israel never once fired a shot except in defense. who cares about the palestinian children? well their parents sure don't. their leaders sure don't. their people sure don't.

in the 60 years of the conflict, no jew, EVER has blown themselves up on a bus. no jew has ever walked into a school or a nightclub, or a pizza parlour, with a bomb strapped to his body, layered with shrapnel so he can kill as many islamic people as he can, so that when he dies he goes to heaven with 72 virgins. so how exactly are they being treated the same? what has israel done for them? what have they done to deserve anything? when have they ever pursued peace in any form other than the total annihilation of jewish people?

Oh RIGHT they have been trying to compromise, by killing people ..yeah man ..oh wait what about them taking the Palestinians homes/land? No that was bought...so where is this money? Yeah Palestine never existed in the first place.

6 million? :S holocaust? :S

do you watch the news? what else was the pull-out from gush katif? what is giving them gaza and the west bank? what is allowing jerusalem to be an omni religious area? things that were never allowed when the arabs were around. no, the palestinians never did exist. they were egyptians or jordanians or lebanese. there was no palestine. the aren't one people. and they didn't own the land, so why would they have the money. it was owned by the turks, so go bug them for a share. thats who got paid, the owners.

6 million = approximation of the number of jews in israel. it is also the approximate number that will be murdered if the palestinians control all of israel. any wonder then, that i don't want to condemn 6 million people to death. wierd of me, i know.

Id like to see how the Israelis would feel if the Palestinins killed more than 100 Israeli children then said it was a mistake

they don't say its a mistake, they say it was on purpose. they WANT to kill jewish children. so thats ok then? i mean, it was on purpose, not an accident, so thats fine then?

Nope:| Would you be fine with people insulting your religion in public or private? If then maybe you dont believe in it?! Anyone who believes in their religion will be angry if some idiot who knows nothing about their religion comes out and bags it. the whole death thing is wrong. Not saying its right.

you asked what death threats. there they are. endorsed and created by one of the most recognized islamic figures in the world. you want to explain how this doesn't show an intolerance for any criticism in islam today? cos there are plenty more examples of islamic intolerance in the world.

and what are you talking about. i'm jewish. people have been insulting my religion for thousands of years. jews own at being insulted. we've been doing it longer than islam existed. you don't see jews killing people because someone says "the torah is wrong", or "all jews are evil". so why is this an acceptable response for islamic people? yet another double standard.

I have a few questions:

- What compromise are we specifically referring to here? (i.e. over the 60 year period)

- Do u believe the Israeli occupation is Legal or illegal?

- What should be done (or what is being done) to compensate all the Palestinians who were forced out of their land in the past, for example the majority of the 70,000 inhabitants forced out of Jafa (Yafa) on the 13th May 1948.

most recent attempt was the palestinians being given the gaza strip and the west bank. before they they had repeatedly been offered portions of land within which they would have autonomy. they repeatedly scorned the peace process, or refused to take part in it. generally comprimises are offers of land that have always been refused. hence why the israelis unilaterally withdrew from the gaza strip.

calling it the israeli occupation already terms it illlegal, thats the connotation of the term.

Jaffa.

Prior to the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the UN's Special Commission on Palestine in 1947 recommended that Jaffa become part of the planned Jewish state. Due to the large Arab majority, however, it was instead designated as an Arab enclave in the Jewish state in the 1947 UN Partition Plan.

The Arabs rejected the plan and on 30 November, 1947, the day following the adoption of the UN resolution, seven Jews were killed by Arabs in Palestine in three separate incidents: at 8 o'clock in the morning, in what came to be seen as the opening shots of the 1948 War,[3] three Arabs attacked a bus from Netanya to Jerusalem, killing five Jewish passengers. Half an hour later a second bus attack left a Jewish passenger dead. Later in the day a twenty-five-year old Jewish man was shot dead in Jaffa, where there were alleged attacks on Arabs by Jews. In Jerusalem, the Arab Higher Committee called a three-day general strike from Tuesday, December 2 to be followed by mass demonstrations after Friday prayers.

From the beginning of the strike onwards, Arab and Jewish clashes escalated and by December 11 the Jerusalem correspondent of The Times estimated that at least 130 people had died, "about 70 of them being Jews, 50 Arabs, and among the rest three British soldiers and one British policeman".

On April 25, 1948, Irgun launched an offensive on Jaffa, then the largest Arab city in Palestine, during which many of its Arab residents fled through the harbor. Haganah units took the city on May 14. From a population of about 70,000-80,000 Arabs, only about 4,100 did not flee.
(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa,_Israel#The_1948_Arab-Israeli_War)

so you see, the arabic people instigated a war that resulted in the people fleeing from jaffa. not an orginised expusion. and as for whats being done, its a little hard to negotiate terms or to give things to people who want to kill you.

- Was the creation of Israel based on religious principles/teachings? If so, I'd like to be informed of these principles/teachings.

We all know that Palestine is sacred for Christians, Jews and Muslims, but IS religion the sole problem behind the violence?

You do realise Palestinians comprise of both Christians and Muslim I hope?

yeah it pretty much was. Jews believe that israel is our homeland, and has been a central part of the religion for 3000 years. the laws of israel are based pretty closely on torah law, modified a little so as to be modern.

and id say yes, religion is the main problem in the region. the majority of violence in the region is between muslims and jews, not the christian elements of arabic people. look at the rhetoric of the HAMAS ruling body, the PLO and FATAH before that. their problem is with jews, not with israel. its just convenient for them that there is a concentration of jews in one area that they can attack.

religion shouldn't be an issue, everyone should get along and respect each others beliefs in peace and harmony. but when has that ever happened?

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

I have a few questions:

- What compromise are we specifically referring to here? (i.e. over the 60 year period)

- Do u believe the Israeli occupation is Legal or illegal?

- What should be done (or what is being done) to compensate all the Palestinians who were forced out of their land in the past, for example the majority of the 70,000 inhabitants forced out of Jafa (Yafa) on the 13th May 1948.





I think Mr EaZy has a point. Another question:

- Was the creation of Israel based on religious principles/teachings? If so, I'd like to be informed of these principles/teachings.

We all know that Palestine is sacred for Christians, Jews and Muslims, but IS religion the sole problem behind the violence?

You do realise Palestinians comprise of both Christians and Muslim I hope?

In terms of compromises: Peel partition plan, various resolutions on how to allocate transjordan to the Palestinians, Camp David 2000 and recent disengagement.

The second issue - It doesn't matter what you or I believe, the question has a fault in it. Belief does not come into legal status, it is either legal or not. So far no constructive legal action has been taken and it is not as if those with the ability to do so do not know wat is happening so currently, in terms of legality, it is not illegal but that is up to the courts, not yours or my beliefs.

In relation to Jaffa - as you will agree with me I hope, whether rightly or wrongly, Israel was formed on the 14th of may. As you will note, there was a war on at this time called the War of Independance. Many villages were evacuated where people were made to leave...as does happen in all wars...except for those on Playstation and Xbox...
Also, from http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/ (this site is definitely pro-Palestinian and has no Israeli bias, if anything it has a Palestinian bias):

Jaffa defenders were made up from of a combination forces as follows:-​

1. Arab Liberation Army headed by 'Abdel Nijim al-Din and Michael al-'Issa (Palestinian Christian from Jaffa).​
2. Local Palestinian volunteers.​
3. 50 Yugoslavian Muslim Mujahideens who volunteered to defend the city.​
4. Many Palestinian Germans from the German colonies near Jaffa and some Italian volunteers.​

Altogether, the defending force was 1,500 volunteers strong, which was very poorly trained, under armed, and they had few months only to build Jaffa's crumbling defenses. Despite the odds, many of these heroes withstood a three months onslaught and siege.



Obviously this was a consequence of the war considering there was resistance.


​

Furthermore please do take a look at this site as it will support your position as it talks about Israel's process of "Ethnic cleansing"...but one must wonder how Israel was able to ethnically cleanse the land when Israel didn't officially exist until the next day (14th of may) considering this happened on the 13th.

Furthermore, it was a bit of an odd "ethnic cleansing" considering that there were 70 000 (including 1500 actual defenders) palestinians against 5000 Israelis. Also, with such ethnic cleansing Israel obviously must have gotten tired considering they let 3650 stay. Yes, that is a difference of over 70000 but then one must ask why if 5000 could get rid of 70000, what reason was there to leave that last amount. I don't know, seems more like a product of war than haterd.

 

[physician]

Re: Israel & Palestine

In terms of compromises: Peel partition plan, various resolutions on how to allocate transjordan to the Palestinians, Camp David 2000 and recent disengagement.

So are we talking of compromise in terms of land? If peace is to be established separation is not the answer. The whole idea of peace is that everyone is able to co-exists, barriers and boarders will do nothing to establish peace in the land.

In relation to Jaffa - as you will agree with me I hope, whether rightly or wrongly, Israel was formed on the 14th of may. As you will note, there was a war on at this time called the War of Independance. Many villages were evacuated where people were made to leave...as does happen in all wars...except for those on Playstation and Xbox...
Also, from http://www.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/ (this site is definitely pro-Palestinian and has no Israeli bias, if anything it has a Palestinian bias):

Jaffa defenders were made up from of a combination forces as follows:-​

1. Arab Liberation Army headed by 'Abdel Nijim al-Din and Michael al-'Issa (Palestinian Christian from Jaffa).​
2. Local Palestinian volunteers.​
3. 50 Yugoslavian Muslim Mujahideens who volunteered to defend the city.​
4. Many Palestinian Germans from the German colonies near Jaffa and some Italian volunteers.​

Altogether, the defending force was 1,500 volunteers strong, which was very poorly trained, under armed, and they had few months only to build Jaffa's crumbling defenses. Despite the odds, many of these heroes withstood a three months onslaught and siege.



Obviously this was a consequence of the war considering there was resistance.​

From the very same link u provided it states:

"It should be noted that Jaffa was never allocated to the Jewish state by the UN GA partition plane, and it had also no Arab Armies."

From this I understand that the reason the voluntary force was formed was simply as a form of defence. (i.e. forming a poorly trained army rather than sit back and watch)

Furthermore please do take a look at this site as it will support your position as it talks about Israel's process of "Ethnic cleansing"...but one must wonder how Israel was able to ethnically cleanse the land when Israel didn't officially exist until the next day (14th of may) considering this happened on the 13th.

Furthermore, it was a bit of an odd "ethnic cleansing" considering that there were 70 000 (including 1500 actual defenders) palestinians against 5000 Israelis. Also, with such ethnic cleansing Israel obviously must have gotten tired considering they let 3650 stay. Yes, that is a difference of over 70000 but then one must ask why if 5000 could get rid of 70000, what reason was there to leave that last amount. I don't know, seems more like a product of war than haterd.

Thats a good question actually, Im trying to find out why the 3650 were allowed to stay, but if u stumble across something more specific before I do, please do share.​

 

[physician]

Re: Israel & Palestine

religion shouldn't be an issue, everyone should get along and respect each others beliefs in peace and harmony. but when has that ever happened?

throughout history?

In Palestine:

637: Under the rule of the Caliph Umar bin Al Khattab

The Caliph Omar entered Jerusalem mounted on a white camel, escorted by the magistrate of the city, the Greek Patriarch Sophronius. The Caliph asked to be taken immediately to the Temple Mount and there he knelt in prayer on the spot where his friend Mohammed had made his Night Journey. The Patriarch watched in horror: this, he thought, must be the Abomination of Desolation that the Prophet Daniel had foretold would enter the Temple; this must be Antichrist who would herald the Last Days. Next Omar asked to see the Christian shrines and, while he was in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, the time for Muslim prayer came round. Courteously the Patriarch invited him to pray where he was, but Omar as courteously refused. If he knelt to pray in the church, he explained, the Muslims would want to commemorate the event by erecting a mosque there, and that would mean that they would have to demolish the Holy Sepulchre. Instead Omar went to pray at a little distance from the church, and, sure enough, directly opposite the Holy Sepulchre there is still a small mosque dedicated to the Caliph Omar.

The other great mosque of Omar was erected on the Temple Mount to mark the Muslim conquest, together with the mosque al-Aqsa which commemorates Mohammed's Night Journey. For years, the Christians had used to the site of the ruined Jewish Temple as the city rubbish dump. The Caliph helped his Muslims to clear the garbage with his own hands and there Muslims raised their two shrines to establish Islam in the third most holy city in the Islamic world.

SOURCE: Karen Armstrong, Holy War, (MacMillan: 1988), pp. 30-31.

1514: When Sultan Selim captured Jerusalem (when approx. 400 years of Ottoman rule in Palestine began)

The Ottoman Empire was administered by the "nation (millet) system," the fundamental feature of which was that people of different faiths were allowed to live according to their own beliefs and legal systems

Just a couple of examples within Palestine.

 

[physician]

Re: Israel & Palestine

yeah it pretty much was. Jews believe that israel is our homeland, and has been a central part of the religion for 3000 years. the laws of israel are based pretty closely on torah law, modified a little so as to be modern.

So what would be your response to Orthodox Jews who claim the establishment of the state of Israel contradicts the teachings of the Torah?

ex:
- International Jews Against Zionism (Neturei Karta)
- True Torah Jews Against Zionism

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

So are we talking of compromise in terms of land? If peace is to be established separation is not the answer. The whole idea of peace is that everyone is able to co-exists, barriers and boarders will do nothing to establish peace in the land.



From the very same link u provided it states:

"It should be noted that Jaffa was never allocated to the Jewish state by the UN GA partition plane, and it had also no Arab Armies."

From this I understand that the reason the voluntary force was formed was simply as a form of defence. (i.e. forming a poorly trained army rather than sit back and watch)




Thats a good question actually, Im trying to find out why the 3650 were allowed to stay, but if u stumble across something more specific before I do, please do share.

"So are we talking of compromise in terms of land?"
I personally do not believe it is entirely based on a compromise of land, but I keep getting told that Israel has stolen Palestinian land, and people keep getting angry about "the occupation of Palestine" so I agree with you that it is more than "barriers and borders" but right now the Palestinian people seem to want Israel to hand back what Palestinians believe to be theirs. Hence my talk of those issues, relating to land, as compromisation.

"From the very same link u provided it states:

"It should be noted that Jaffa was never allocated to the Jewish state by the UN GA partition plane, and it had also no Arab Armies."

From this I understand that the reason the voluntary force was formed was simply as a form of defence. (i.e. forming a poorly trained army rather than sit back and watch)"
I wholeheartedly agree with you. They had a right to defend themselves. I don't know exactly about the UN part but, for discussion purposes, considering this was not Israel's land then this definitely calls for Jaffa's defensive measures. What I am saying is that in war land is gained and lost. In this case land was gained by Israel.
This is another point of contention where people say land is stolen by Israel where often it is Israel that gained the land, yes through bloodshed, but legitimately through war...but this has been argued before and I state that much land has been bought by ISrael as opposed to gaining through war and I further acknowledge that many believe what I have just stated is rubbish and Israel is a bunch of murderous thievs bent on gaining more land...obviously this is a contentious issue that I don't really want to go into and there is no need to because I have just stated both positions.

"Thats a good question actually, Im trying to find out why the 3650 were allowed to stay, but if u stumble across something more specific before I do, please do share."

Unfoutunately as with most historical events we will never know the exact answer. We can only speculate. I bring up the issue of the remaining people because the site I provided speaks of "ethnic cleansing" by Israel. For a number of reasons I believe it is wrong to use this phrase. So while I cannot give you a good, neutral, unbiased reason as to WHY they were allowed to stay, I would like to make the point that it creates an inconsistency for the idea of ethnic cleansing considering Jaffa is currently a highly multicultural (Arab and Israeli) area of Israel where conflict has been minimal and, coming back to 1948, if the sole purpose was ethnic cleansing then, considering, 5000 Israelis were able to remove over 70 000 Jaffa inhabitants it is odd to think that 3650 stood in the way of "cleansing". But I agree with you I do not know the answer to this so if you find something I would also appreciate you posting what you find.

 

[Atilla89]

Re: Israel & Palestine

So what would be your response to Orthodox Jews who claim the establishment of the state of Israel contradicts the teachings of the Torah?

ex:
- International Jews Against Zionism (Neturei Karta)
- True Torah Jews Against Zionism

Stop quoting the NK, that arguement has already been defeated here multiple time. This is a sect that has been rejected by the Chassidic movement and is a tiny majority of the Jewish religion (some 5000 members). These are the same people who shook Ahminijad's hand at the Holocaust denial conference. These same people were at the Durban Anti-Racism day, protesting on Shabbat! (note Jews are not allowed to work on the Sabbath - protesting is work). These people are do not represent Judaism and exist only to draw media attention on their cause which is wrong and rejected by the world Jewish community.