Israel and Palestine (2 Viewers)

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

So what would be your response to Orthodox Jews who claim the establishment of the state of Israel contradicts the teachings of the Torah?

ex:
- International Jews Against Zionism (Neturei Karta)
- True Torah Jews Against Zionism

The thing is this, do you recognise that Israel can should exist in some form in roughly the same place it is?
Well the idea is that these jews do not.

They do not represent any other view but their own and so it makes no difference that they are Jewish or not. They are no different from Palestinian supporters in their opinion. So my response is this: luckily we live in a free society where any opinion can be expressed. These Jews express their opinion but it is not really supportive or cataclysmicly important to any position that they are Jewish.
I don't really understand their involvement other than the fact that they are another supporter of a single Palestinian state solution.

 

[physician]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Stop quoting the NK, that arguement has already been defeated here multiple time. This is a sect that has been rejected by the Chassidic movement and is a tiny majority of the Jewish religion (some 5000 members). These are the same people who shook Ahminijad's hand at the Holocaust denial conference. These same people were at the Durban Anti-Racism day, protesting on Shabbat! (note Jews are not allowed to work on the Sabbath - protesting is work). These people are do not represent Judaism and exist only to draw media attention on their cause which is wrong and rejected by the world Jewish community.

Thank you for that info. Is this the same case with the other site I linked? (are they from the same group?)

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

no you're right, under the ottomon empire things were cool. i was thinking in more recent times, last 100 years, maybe a little further back.

 

[Atilla89]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Thank you for that info. Is this the same case with the other site I linked? (are they from the same group?)

Yeah.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Firstly Aryan could you call me one thing and stick to it, you're soo bloody annoying! :mad1:

We know for a fact that NO jewish children blew themselves up in the history of israel. They are not brainwahsed like arabs kids with a false promise of better after life and such for suicide bombings or killing anyone.

Well looks like you finally get what im trying to say.

who the hell said Jews teach their children to become suicide bombers? They just kill people without injuring themselves.

I read every sentence and the more I read the more I am convinced how Islam radicalised people to commit terrorists acts, such as suicide bombings with a promise of better life after death as you said.

Are you serious? If you read every word i said, you would have realised that in Islam, suicide bombings and killing innocent people is forbidden.

Exactly where does it say in Quran? But Why does your religious leaders made such laws banning driving by women calling it sinful and NOT permissible under Islam? You have such ridiculous Islamic Laws and it is your duty to prove why you have such laws. And that is what is wrong with Islam, allowing its religious leader to make up laws which are NOT even in Quran, abuse a text from Quran to abuse women (which you still denies).

Nope not my duty, its yours. You're the one saying that driving is banned in Islam[for women], yet you cannot prove it. I drive, im muslim and female, last i checked it was perfectly fine. In Islam women are encouraged to study, etc. Whats wrong with driving? You started this you end it. If you cant then dont make anything up next time.

So religious leaders are the ones who teach this? Well i told you i'll get you to speak with an actual religious leader in sydney yet you dont want to, how are you going to find out what is true when you dont even bother?

Did Non-Muslim men who bash their wives and forced step daughter get their authority from Christian Law? No, they did not. And It is a criminal offence to abuse women in all forms in this country or any other country (except islamic countries). On the otherhand, under Islam, abuse of Women is perfectly OK because they have a Law that allows it, derived directly from Quran.

http://www.angelfire.com/ms/domviol/bible.html
Until now i know nothing about Judaism, and theres nothing on the net about it, other than what the Jews say:|

According to wikipedia:

"The sages say that four traits apply to women: They are greedy, eavesdroppers, lazy and jealous...
Rabbi Yehoshua bar Nahmani adds: they are querulous and garrulous.
Rabbi Levy adds: they are thieves and gadabouts" (Midrash Bereshit Rabbah 45:5).

The situation of Jewish women, like most women in Europe, was often not bright, with household roles, arranged marriages, and child brides common. Very little of the written history of Jewish women comes from women. Avraham Grossman writes that "Throughout the Middle Ages, which continued for about a thousand years, we do not find so much as a single women of importance among the sages of Israel....Moreover, over a period of a thousand years, not a single Jewish woman wrote a halakhic, literary, theoretical, mystical, or poetic work, with the exception of a handful of poems written by Jewish women in Spain" Jewish women were generally prohibited from holding formal leadership roles with authority over men. Significant developments in Jewish law to affecting women's status occurred.

Women are not traditionally permitted to serve as witnesses in an Orthodox Beit Din (rabbinical court).

Which is why i asked for books about Judaism, however if we just read ^^and ignore all else then .. i dont see why you speak of Islam when christianity and Judaism are... read and see :|

Any act that could lead to sexual relations whilst a woman is a niddah is forbidden according to the Torah and rabbinic law. Since a husband and wife are very accustomed to being physically intimate with each other, therefore they must take great care during the time the woman is niddah. They must relate completely on a non-physical level. They may not hug or kiss each other, or even pass each other items from hand to hand. These laws are termed "harchakot" ("spacers"), to ensure "one thing will not lead to another".

how is passing an item bad? :S

yes it seems alright on the book, but in practice the most violent religion the world has ever seen, its followers supports murder, suicide bombings, terrorists, abuse against women, non muslims etc.

Did you know Theo Van Gogh was brutally murdered by your fellow muslim in broad daylight in the street of Amsterdam by your fellow muslim? Did you know Ayaan Hirshi Ali received thousands of death threat from your fellow muslim for speaking abuse against women in Islam? Did you know Isioma Daniel was ordered to be killed by your religious leader for saying Muhammad wouls choose one of Miss world contestant. Did you know speaking against Muhammad alone is a capital offence in most islamic countries?

You defend your religion because you CANNOT criticise anything without being threatened with Death.

Do you have a religion? Do you believe in religion? If you do, how would you react if someone spoke ill about your prophet? [whatever you want to call him] Would you jus accept it? Do understand the concept of an afterlife? Do you understand the fact that you will go to either hell or paradise depending on the decisions you make in this life? Do you understand that when one followers a religion they should follow it to the word? That if someone speaks ill of your prophet you should defend him! Well obviously you dont. I 100% support every word in the Quran. In the Quran it says one must defend the prophet, these people think theyre so smart that they speak ill of him when they know nothing about him or the context/era which he lived in.

______________

Here is the link showing that the kids want to be in the jail, or their parents want them to. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1528104.ece so there you go, life is so shit under palestinian authority, in the palestinian side of the country, they would PREFER to be in jail in israel. doesn't say much for palestine does it?

WOW! Shows some kids like being in gaol, the link i posted showed kids hated gaols. Some may be treated ok, but lots of these kids arent. Face it.

if they are arrested for something, then they aren't being interrogated for nothing. they are being interrogated for commiting a crime. i seriously doubt that there are innocent people in israeli jails just because they are palestinian. how many people convicted of crimes fess up and say they did it after they are released? basically none, because they feel no remorse. so no, i don't think there is anything wrong there.

What if they are arrested for no reason at all? Like the link i posted which you didnt believe.

Really? Let me fnd something ...

Israel has consistently defended its policies of interrogation inside detention centres and prisons, saying that it is a necessary tool against the war on terror. In 1987, according to Israel’s Landau Commission of Inquiry into interrogation policies, the state determined that “a moderate degree of pressure, including physical pressure, in order to obtain crucial information, is unavoidable under certain circumstances.”[/quote]

This is from the article you ignore^^ Its true yet you ignore it.

Right love the treatment...10 star hotel!!!

And here is what have already said:

once again, israel acts in retaliation to palestinian terror. if the palestinians stopped blowing themselves up on busses, the israelis would have no reason to fight.

hizballah and hamas and others target civilians because they are defensless. they are cowards and they are animals.

from: http://community.boredofstudies.org/2919131/post-503.html

Whats this called? You've also mentioned the whole thing about killing [hurting] innocent children [cant find it...too much crap in this thread!] But you seem to be saying different things depending on how it suits you.

still doesn't justify their actions. they are monsters, there are no two ways about it. palestinians ARE the only ones glorifying it. thet CELEBRATE when people blow themselves up. and if your 'terrorists' are too cowardly to fight in the open, and they hide and put their people in danger, then blame the terrorists. you don't get to blame israel for fighting a war the palestinians and arabs started. israel never once fired a shot except in defense. who cares about the palestinian children? well their parents sure don't. their leaders sure don't. their people sure don't.

Rrriiiiight. Well the Palestinians would be living happily if the 'Israelis' didnt come along, so we got someone to blame.
Never fired a shot...except in defence. I can see that riiiiiiiggghhhttt here :

The Israeli regime claims that the purpose of attacking Lebanon is to defeat Hizbollah. But Israeli pilots report that they are being ordered to attack targets that have nothing whatsoever to do with Hizbollah, like main roads and tall housing blocks, and a growing number of pilots admit deliberately disobeying direct orders to spare civilian lives. Israeli operations have not affected Hizbollah, in fact Hizbollah retaliation is increasing. An Israeli official recently boasted that the attacks would "set Lebanon back 20 years", and the regime's methods and the results so far only make sense if we understand that this is the main objective.

http://thedebate.org/news/article.asp?id=2129
Yess never have Israelis done anything wrong. Just shows they take orders from those above them, they dont make up their own mids [like Aryan seems to believe]

in the 60 years of the conflict, no jew, EVER has blown themselves

up on a bus. no jew has ever walked into a school or a nightclub, or a pizza parlour, with a bomb strapped to his body, layered with shrapnel so he can kill as many islamic people as he can, so that when he dies he goes to heaven with 72 virgins. so how exactly are they being treated the same? what has israel done for them? what have they done to deserve anything? when have they ever pursued peace in any form other than the total annihilation of jewish people?[/quote]

They dont need to, since they have so much weapons which they could use to kill without being hurt in the process.

they aint being treated the same, they are being treated like shit compare to the way Israelis are treated!

Well: killed childre/parents/loved ones, children+innocent people in gaol [for no reason], kidnapped civilians, raped women [check with Mani] for gods sake even the president was a rapist! ... stolen land, killed, killed, killed...want more?

why should they? when has israel as a whole being good to them?

do you watch the news? what else was the pull-out from gush katif? what is giving them gaza and the west bank? what is allowing jerusalem to be an omni religious area? things that were never allowed when the arabs were around. no, the palestinians never did exist. they were egyptians or jordanians or lebanese. there was no palestine. the aren't one people. and they didn't own the land, so why would they have the money. it was owned by the turks, so go bug them for a share. thats who got paid, the owners.

6 million = approximation of the number of jews in israel. it is also the approximate number that will be murdered if the palestinians control all of israel. any wonder then, that i don't want to condemn 6 million people to death. wierd of me, i know.

No i dont watch the news. so these people are... Right they are from somewhere else, even though they were living on these lands before the Israelis arrived..

They only kill coz they want particular things, you give them what they want they wont kill anymore. You are just siding with the Israelis and not seeing ...even trying to see this from the Palestinians POV.

they don't say its a mistake, they say it was on purpose. they WANT to kill jewish children. so thats ok then? i mean, it was on purpose, not an accident, so thats fine then?

nope its not fine...but the Israelis try to make what they do 'fine' by saying its a mistake, and to me lying about it is worse. [Both wrong tho]

you asked what death threats. there they are. endorsed and created by one of the most recognized islamic figures in the world. you want to explain how this doesn't show an intolerance for any criticism in islam today? cos there are plenty more examples of islamic intolerance in the world.

and what are you talking about. i'm jewish. people have been insulting my religion for thousands of years. jews own at being insulted. we've been doing it longer than islam existed. you don't see jews killing people because someone says "the torah is wrong", or "all jews are evil". so why is this an acceptable response for islamic people? yet another double standard.

leave the killing out of this for a minute. If someone told you something about your religion, you would react to it how? By telling them what is right, then walking away and they will repeat it, and you will tell them again... ?

The death thing is wrong we all get that by now.

Ok here read this:

Schurr claimed that she was assaulted by Israeli soldiers, jailed for a week without charges and forced to fly home without most of her belongings, including filmed records of her experience with about 150 Palestinians and nine fellow foreign "peace workers" who were holed up with little food or water inside the ancient basilica.

from:http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0519-02.htm

 

[sam04u]

Re: Israel & Palestine

I wholeheartedly agree with you. They had a right to defend themselves.

Incorrect, they not only had a right to "defend themselves" but they have a right to fend off an invasion. (Whether it be a biological invasion, or a military invasion.)

I don't know exactly about the UN part but, for discussion purposes, considering this was not Israel's land then this definitely calls for Jaffa's defensive measures.

Any invasion "justifies" a resistance under UN law. (Unless it is a welcomed invasion.) The fact was that the Palestinians weren't invaded by a military force (in 1948), but rather through mass immigration and then later by "dispositioning" and "displacing" them through military means and under British support.

What I am saying is that in war land is gained and lost. In this case land was gained by Israel.

It is illegal to conquer another peoples land. Surely, China or Russia would have the capability to invade one of their surrounding countries. But the fact remains that it is illegal, and will ultimately cause an equal and opposite reaction. (which is what we're witnessing through the Palestinians and people world wide.)

This is another point of contention where people say land is stolen by Israel where often it is Israel that gained the land, yes through bloodshed, but legitimately through war

Regardless of the fact that it is illegal to annex another peoples land, the Palestinians have an inherent right to return to their land as natives. Regardless of whether they slaughtered palestinians to "claim" ownership of the land, regardless fo whether the border is internationally recognised. Israel breached upto 4 Human rights in preventing Palestinian movement, and denying Palestinians access to their countries.

...but this has been argued before and I state that much land has been bought by ISrael

This myth is perhaps the most aggravating of them all. Show me evidence that the Palestinians sold;

• Every Mosque
• Every Road
• Every School
• Every Home
• Every Farm
• Their Right to live in the country.
• Their right to return to their country.
• And every other part of the occupied state the currently exists.

The simple truth is that none of this happened. Perhaps through immigration a few farms and some farm land was bought. But you don't buy a tiny part of a country and declare it your own. That entire argument is total fallacy. The Palestinians have an inherent right to return to their country. But the Israeli's wont accept that right, they wont give them freedom of movement, or freedom to elect any government.

Instead Israel's pawn the U.S forms U.N sanctions and embargoes against the Palestininians for exercising their rights. (Something you will not accept nor understand out of your own obnoxiousness.)

Palestinians have a right to fight off the occupation of their land. Fighting off an occupation does not make you a terrorist. I've said and proven many times that by the very definition of terrorism, "Israel" is a "terrorist state". They have attacked civilian areas and infrastructure countless times, and have performed raids on civilian zones. You can't say "a whole nation of children" is collateral. Their bombings of the Schools in Lebanon is evidence alone of their terrorism.

 

[sam04u]

Re: Israel & Palestine

who the hell said Jews teach their children to become suicide bombers? They just kill people without injuring themselves

Yeah, I've said that many times.

Palestine has Suicide bombers, where they die for the Palestinian people.
Israel has Genocide bombers, where they kill for the Israeli people.

 

[jb_nc]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Are you serious? If you read every word i said, you would have realised that in Islam, suicide bombings and killing innocent people is forbidden.

lol ok only as long as they are other muslims right

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

put yourself in their shoes heba. if you kill people, and you get what you want, why would you stop killing? it shows that killing is rewarded. its a classic pavolovian response. you don't reward bad behaviour, you don't give people things for being evil.

No i dont watch the news. so these people are... Right they are from somewhere else, even though they were living on these lands before the Israelis arrived..

They only kill coz they want particular things, you give them what they want they wont kill anymore. You are just siding with the Israelis and not seeing ...even trying to see this from the Palestinians POV.

still not addressing the issue, which is that the israelis were given the land by the people who owned it. the arabs started a war, the israelis won it, 3 or 4 times. they still fight, they haven't stopped. in fact, they haven't tried anything byt fighting. the israelis on the other hand have tried to compromise. the position to arabs find themselves in is quite a fair bit of their doing.

Israel has consistently defended its policies of interrogation inside detention centres and prisons, saying that it is a necessary tool against the war on terror. In 1987, according to Israel’s Landau Commission of Inquiry into interrogation policies, the state determined that “a moderate degree of pressure, including physical pressure, in order to obtain crucial information, is unavoidable under certain circumstances.

and this ammounts to torture? australian jails have small ammounts of physical pressure to achieve results. these are criminals, forgive me for not having their welfare at the front of my mind.

they aint being treated the same, they are being treated like shit compare to the way Israelis are treated!

they now have their own country, their own land. so why is it they aren't treating their citizens well? why is that they their welfare sucks so hard? well, mainly cos they have a history of voting for people who want to kill all the jews rather than establishing infrastructure.

Well: killed childre/parents/loved ones, children+innocent people in gaol [for no reason], kidnapped civilians, raped women [check with Mani] for gods sake even the president was a rapist! ... stolen land, killed, killed, killed...want more?

there are reasons why they are in jail, if you don't like them, it doesn't negate the reasoning. its a war, it is bring fought. some people fall down on the wrong side in a war. they started a war, and they are the ones who will have to stop it, who will have to make the first step towards peace, since they are the people who started the war.

yeah he is, and hes a bastard for it. politicians suck the world over. look in their backyard, we can see that the same shit exists in any political party the world over. FATAH prime minister Mahmoud Abbas funded the muich massacre in which jewish olympians in Munich were killed in cold blood by arabic terrorists. Yasser Arafat was an avowed terrorist. HAMAS speaks for itself. you want more?

No i dont watch the news. so these people are... Right they are from somewhere else, even though they were living on these lands before the Israelis arrived..

They only kill coz they want particular things, you give them what they want they wont kill anymore. You are just siding with the Israelis and not seeing ...even trying to see this from the Palestinians POV.

once again, ill use the analogy of renting/staying in a house. if i am renting or staying in, a house, and someone else buys the house from the person who owns it, or that person gives them the keys to the house, i can't kill the people who bought it. i can't blow them up, or fight against them, because they are legally allowed to buy somehting, and i never owned it in the first place.

i would be alot more sympathetic to an palestinian POV if they didn't start a war with people who had just come from the holocaust. i would be more sympathetic to their plight if they didn't scream for the blood of jews to run through the street, for all jews to be drowned in the sea.

why should they? when has israel as a whole being good to them?

when have they done anything to deserve to be traeted well as a nation. they have fought a war for 60 years. ergo, they are the stated enemy. so why should the state treat them as citizens. when they lay down their guns, then they can be treated as equals.

from your article

Several still in jail are now on a hunger strike, protesting what they consider to have been their illegal capture by Israeli forces in Palestinian-governed central Bethlehem. But relatives and movement associates say that the only obstacle preventing the Americans' release is their refusal to accept an Israeli deportation order. They are demanding written assurances from Israel that they will be able to return to the West Bank, which can be reached only from Israel, or through an Israeli-controlled border crossing from Jordan.

they are refusing to leave. the israeli govt has said they are to be deported, they are refusing to leave. they are in jail because they are stubborn and refuse to leave. i'm failing to see how this is israel's fault...

and further than that

But the pro-Palestinians readily admit to activities calculated to make them unwelcome in Israel, such as handing out Hebrew- language leaflets to Israeli soldiers that call on them to refuse service in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

they admit to doing things within israel that were infammatory. so they are in jail for a reason, two really. behvaing in a manner that made the govt not want them there anymore, and then refusing to leave. israel's fault again i spose?

Never fired a shot...except in defence. I can see that riiiiiiiggghhhttt here

Hizballah started the war in lebanon in 2006. so everything israel did from there on is a response to the terrorism of Hizballah. im failing to see the point?

Whats this called? You've also mentioned the whole thing about killing [hurting] innocent children [cant find it...too much crap in this thread!] But you seem to be saying different things depending on how it suits you.

no i'm saying that HAMAS targets innocent kids, israel doesn't. therefore HAMAS are terrorists, israel isn't. the story that israel just picked up a kid from the road and put him in jail doesn't seem right to me, and since there isn't any proof of it, i choose to disregard it until there is proof. like a prison documentation showing his stay there. or what he was charged with. that kinda thing.

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Any invasion "justifies" a resistance under UN law. (Unless it is a welcomed invasion.) The fact was that the Palestinians weren't invaded by a military force (in 1948), but rather through mass immigration and then later by "dispositioning" and "displacing" them through military means and under British support.

sam, the un supported israel's creation. so wouldn't that kinda negate the invasion theory. you can't pick and choose buddy, either the UN is right or it isn't. whoops...

China or Russia would have the capability to invade one of their surrounding countries.

china has invasions in tibet and in taiwan. and with russia look at chechnya. common knowledge.

his myth is perhaps the most aggravating of them all. Show me evidence that the Palestinians sold;
Every Mosque
Every Road
Every School
Every Home
Every Farm
Their Right to live in the country.
Their right to return to their country.
And every other part of the occupied state the currently exists.

show me evidence they ever owned any of it... i say they didn't even exist until 1948. impasse.

 

[sam04u]

Re: Israel & Palestine

sam, the un supported israel's creation. so wouldn't that kinda negate the invasion theory. you can't pick and choose buddy, either the UN is right or it isn't. whoops...

Yeah, you should say whoops. There was one notable condition to the formation of Israel. "The rightful return of the Palestinian people." This has not happened. Infact, ignorant members of these boards claim that foreign nations bare the burdon of "accepting" this major influx in impoverished Palestinian refugees. The entire decisions has since been deemed "unfair" and at times "zionism" was deemed "racist".

The U.N has been so vocal in its opposition of the Zionist state of Israel which oppreses the Palestinians. That people actually accused the U.N of being biased! Isn't that hypocrisy? They gave the majority of the Palestinian peoples land to a minority of immigrants. Most of which immigrated from Europe under the british mandate.

china has invasions in tibet and in taiwan. and with russia look at chechnya. common knowledge.

They've thrown people out of the country? I don't think so. China and Russia is alot more tolerant. The invasion of Palestine can be compared to the Gulf war of 91. Except they weren't expected to leave the country and become refugees.

show me evidence they ever owned any of it... i say they didn't even exist until 1948. impasse.

Under ottoman rule and the British Mandate, the Palestinian land existed. The Palestinians existed there, their grandparents and over 30 generations of parents existed there. (The evidence is readily available on the internet.)

Sykes and Picot Agreements and such recognise its existance. (Regardless of future plans, that region is notably seperated.) Palestine has existed for about a millenium.

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

china and russia are more tolerant? you're nuts. russia spirits reporters away in the middle of the night, and has been accused of ethnic cleansing in chechnya. accused of random torture and things like that.

oh there were people there sure, they were jordanian, lebanese or egyption. the notion of a united arabic people called the palestinians didn't come about until the immigration. so therefore, palestinians didn't exist.

"The rightful return of the Palestinian people."

why would the palestinian people need a right of return if they were already there? where were they returning from? now i mighta missed that, but i read through United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181 and i didn't see anything about a right of return. the rights i saw were that

no Arab residing in the area of the proposed Arab State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Jewish State and no Jew residing in the proposed Jewish State shall have the right to opt for citizenship in the proposed Arab State.

nothing about a right of return. but in there it clearly states that arabs cant be citizens of the jewish state and jews of the arabic state. so why would they then say "but arabs have the right to the land in israel?" really makes no sense.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

put yourself in their shoes heba. if you kill people, and you get what you want, why would you stop killing? it shows that killing is rewarded. its a classic pavolovian response. you don't reward bad behaviour, you don't give people things for being evil.

Because they are killing for a cause! If i was Palestinian and said i wanted say:

-all the people whom Israel kidnapped
-some land
-Israelis to stop killing Palestinians
-All Palestinians who are in agol for no reason at all, to be out.

And all ^^ was fine, then why the hell should i kill anyone? think about it.

still not addressing the issue, which is that the israelis were given the land by the people who owned it. the arabs started a war, the israelis won it, 3 or 4 times. they still fight, they haven't stopped. in fact, they haven't tried anything byt fighting. the israelis on the other hand have tried to compromise. the position to arabs find themselves in is quite a fair bit of their doing.

Other than 'compromising' which will give them nothing, what is there for them to do? They fight. There is nothing else they can do!

and this ammounts to torture? australian jails have small ammounts of physical pressure to achieve results. these are criminals, forgive me for not having their welfare at the front of my mind.

THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE WHO SHOULDNT BE THERE!!!!!!!!

there are innocent children under the age of 18 there being totured. But they arent Israelis so why bother, right?

they now have their own country, their own land. so why is it they aren't treating their citizens well? why is that they their welfare sucks so hard? well, mainly cos they have a history of voting for people who want to kill all the jews rather than establishing infrastructure.

Really? How are they meant to look after their people, when they are being 'kidnapped' or else taken into gaol and how could i forget...theyre dying!!!

what do you expect them to do, leave everything, work out how to look after them, by the time theyre done they'll all be dead.

there are reasons why they are in jail, if you don't like them, it doesn't negate the reasoning. its a war, it is bring fought. some people fall down on the wrong side in a war. they started a war, and they are the ones who will have to stop it, who will have to make the first step towards peace, since they are the people who started the war.

Typical. Those soldiers Hezballah kidnapped, well thats a war, should have been expected. They should have tortured them on live tv...is this how you want it go be?

No matter what it is, they dont have to bring innocent people into these wars, they could dont go anywhere near them yet they choose to kill/torture these innocent people!

yeah he is, and hes a bastard for it. politicians suck the world over. look in their backyard, we can see that the same shit exists in any political party the world over. FATAH prime minister Mahmoud Abbas funded the muich massacre in which jewish olympians in Munich were killed in cold blood by arabic terrorists. Yasser Arafat was an avowed terrorist. HAMAS speaks for itself. you want more?

Hey we know what theyre doing, we ddnt know what he was doing! And Hamas are fighting for the sake of killing all Jews...why? Because they want what was theirs!

Lets all remember why this all started. they were living good lives before Israel came into the equation.

once again, ill use the analogy of renting/staying in a house. if i am renting or staying in, a house, and someone else buys the house from the person who owns it, or that person gives them the keys to the house, i can't kill the people who bought it. i can't blow them up, or fight against them, because they are legally allowed to buy somehting, and i never owned it in the first place.

i would be alot more sympathetic to an palestinian POV if they didn't start a war with people who had just come from the holocaust. i would be more sympathetic to their plight if they didn't scream for the blood of jews to run through the street, for all jews to be drowned in the sea.

Right on. So who owned the land? Why were they living in it? Why didnt anyone think of them when all this was happening?

Jay not meaning to be rude but seriously. Nearly all races/religions have been involved in different wars, which resulted in deaths.

The holocaust, Jews may have been the main people involved but there were others involved as well. Dont try to may this out like, 'Palesinians should have know better we were just nearly all killed.' If thats the case then Jews shouldnt be treating Palestinians the way they do, since they have been throught it before. different circumstances in which they died, yet its all a death and all are worse than one another

The Arabs didnt start it, they didnt even end it...as a matter of fact they didnt have anything to do with it. Just because Jews went throught the holocaust doesnt mean they get special treatment, ok. I feel sorry for them and all the crap that happened, but you dont have to make it out like 'omg we went throught the holocaust now stfu' Everyone has their own crap.

And i would be much more sympathetic to Jews and Israelis in general when they stop treating Palestinians like they currently do, and when people like [all the Jews in this thread] stop siding with Israel even when its obvious they did something wrong!

when have they done anything to deserve to be traeted well as a nation. they have fought a war for 60 years. ergo, they are the stated enemy. so why should the state treat them as citizens. when they lay down their guns, then they can be treated as equals.

from your article
they are refusing to leave. the israeli govt has said they are to be deported, they are refusing to leave. they are in jail because they are stubborn and refuse to leave. i'm failing to see how this is israel's fault...

and further than that they admit to doing things within israel that were infammatory. so they are in jail for a reason, two really. behvaing in a manner that made the govt not want them there anymore, and then refusing to leave. israel's fault again i spose?

Are you serious? Dont dont think Israel is wrong?

They shouldnt be in gaol in the first place! They hand out leaflets wooowwwww Yes it is Israels fault.

Hizballah started the war in lebanon in 2006. so everything israel did from there on is a response to the terrorism of Hizballah. im failing to see the point?

no i'm saying that HAMAS targets innocent kids, israel doesn't. therefore HAMAS are terrorists, israel isn't. the story that israel just picked up a kid from the road and put him in jail doesn't seem right to me, and since there isn't any proof of it, i choose to disregard it until there is proof. like a prison documentation showing his stay there. or what he was charged with. that kinda thing.

So now you know that what Israel is doing is wrong, you just ignore it. You're very smart.

Right so i'll just ignore that article you posted about kids wanting to go to gaol coz its 'like omg...i wanna go there again *faints*'

I swear you people are soo damn cold blooded! Yuk!

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Incorrect, they not only had a right to "defend themselves" but they have a right to fend off an invasion. (Whether it be a biological invasion, or a military invasion.)


Any invasion "justifies" a resistance under UN law. (Unless it is a welcomed invasion.) The fact was that the Palestinians weren't invaded by a military force (in 1948), but rather through mass immigration and then later by "dispositioning" and "displacing" them through military means and under British support.


It is illegal to conquer another peoples land. Surely, China or Russia would have the capability to invade one of their surrounding countries. But the fact remains that it is illegal, and will ultimately cause an equal and opposite reaction. (which is what we're witnessing through the Palestinians and people world wide.)


Regardless of the fact that it is illegal to annex another peoples land, the Palestinians have an inherent right to return to their land as natives. Regardless of whether they slaughtered palestinians to "claim" ownership of the land, regardless fo whether the border is internationally recognised. Israel breached upto 4 Human rights in preventing Palestinian movement, and denying Palestinians access to their countries.


This myth is perhaps the most aggravating of them all. Show me evidence that the Palestinians sold;

• Every Mosque
• Every Road
• Every School
• Every Home
• Every Farm
• Their Right to live in the country.
• Their right to return to their country.
• And every other part of the occupied state the currently exists.

The simple truth is that none of this happened. Perhaps through immigration a few farms and some farm land was bought. But you don't buy a tiny part of a country and declare it your own. That entire argument is total fallacy. The Palestinians have an inherent right to return to their country. But the Israeli's wont accept that right, they wont give them freedom of movement, or freedom to elect any government.

Instead Israel's pawn the U.S forms U.N sanctions and embargoes against the Palestininians for exercising their rights. (Something you will not accept nor understand out of your own obnoxiousness.)

Palestinians have a right to fight off the occupation of their land. Fighting off an occupation does not make you a terrorist. I've said and proven many times that by the very definition of terrorism, "Israel" is a "terrorist state". They have attacked civilian areas and infrastructure countless times, and have performed raids on civilian zones. You can't say "a whole nation of children" is collateral. Their bombings of the Schools in Lebanon is evidence alone of their terrorism.

I didn't really see much to debate in your response to my post because you basically said what I did with an emphasis on condeming Israel but thats cool because it's your opinion.


"This myth is perhaps the most aggravating of them all. Show me evidence that the Palestinians sold;

• Every Mosque
• Every Road
• Every School
• Every Home
• Every Farm
• Their Right to live in the country.
• Their right to return to their country.
• And every other part of the occupied state the currently exists."

Oh yes because I have Israel's tax return for the last 60+ years lying around my house. Whoops sorry, maybe the Israeli Government has every transaction receipt from 1930. Maybe you have it and are hiding it, you're a cheeky one, oh yes you are, oohh yes you are (blows rasberries)

It's interesting how this issue has been brought up before and interestingly enough you are giving the same response as you did then. You KNOW that what you are asking for is rubbish.

Israel was voted in by a democratic vote. We live in a democracy and that is how it ruled - for Israel's existence. Israel has a democratic, legal and moral right to exist...evn though it is inhabited by dark hairy ape people with hooked noses and bulging money pockets...

I don't really want to go into everything else you posted because there is simplicity in your position:
You wish to substitue one nation for another. You can justify how ever you like. You can say that Israel is in the wrong. You can say it was Palestinian people's land first but in the end you wish to do whatever you are condeming. Until you can remove this mentality you will never see peace.

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Because they are killing for a cause! If i was Palestinian and said i wanted say:

so killing for a cause is acceptable? why is the israeli "killing" less acceptable? becayse you don't aggree with the cause?

Other than 'compromising' which will give them nothing, what is there for them to do? They fight. There is nothing else they can do!

they've never done anything other than kill people, so how would you know what compromising will bring. you naysay with no evidence to show otherwise.

there are innocent children under the age of 18 there being totured. But they arent Israelis so why bother, right?

i never said that. i said that i don't believe they are being tortured. the article i had shows that they are treated better as a whole in an israeli jail than in their homes. if they are in jail, then i maintain that they are not innocent. if you are in jail, you have been arrested for a reason. whether or not you aggree that it is a valid reason is your business.

Typical. Those soldiers Hezballah kidnapped, well thats a war, should have been expected. They should have tortured them on live tv...is this how you want it go be?

No matter what it is, they dont have to bring innocent people into these wars, they could dont go anywhere near them yet they choose to kill/torture these innocent people!

Hizballah brings the conflicts to innocents by hiding behind them and using them as human shields. stop blaming israel for the cowardice of terrorists. if you hide amongst innocent people, then you don't get to complain when they die as a result of your actions.

Lets all remember why this all started. they were living good lives before Israel came into the equation.

actually islamic fascists have been persecuting jews for centuries, far longer than israel has existed. this is just the latest in a long line of excuses, right up there with "they stole all our money, or they have big noses".

and no they weren't. their lives were shit before israel. there was nothing in the country but swamps and camels. compare israel with the arabic world, and you have a society with the highest techonological development. your computer chips (are you using intel) are developed in israel. your mobile phones were invented there. you want them to stop existing, then please stop using the stuff that was invented there.

The Arabs didnt start it, they didnt even end it...as a matter of fact they didnt have anything to do with it. Just because Jews went throught the holocaust doesnt mean they get special treatment, ok. I feel sorry for them and all the crap that happened, but you dont have to make it out like 'omg we went throught the holocaust now stfu' Everyone has their own crap.

i didn't mention the holocaust to evoke pathos heba. i mentioned because the arabs attacked people who had just been through hell. no honor, no nobility. just bloodthirsty hate. thats my point. they attacked them right off the boats.

And i would be much more sympathetic to Jews and Israelis in general when they stop treating Palestinians like they currently do, and when people like [all the Jews in this thread] stop siding with Israel even when its obvious they did something wrong!

all israel has to do to be condemned is exist, its never stopped people before. i don't belive israel is doing things wrong. so duh i side with them. i belive the HAMAS and FATAH unified bs is wrong and inherently evil. and i oppose them regardless of their actions.

Are you serious? Dont dont think Israel is wrong?

They shouldnt be in gaol in the first place! They hand out leaflets wooowwwww Yes it is Israels fault.

they don't just hand out leaflets, they encourage people to break the law. encouraging people in the army not to listen to orders or not to show up is against the law. when you break the law, you go to jail. so they are put in jail. they are inciting social hatred. they get what they deserve.

So now you know that what Israel is doing is wrong, you just ignore it. You're very smart.

Right so i'll just ignore that article you posted about kids wanting to go to gaol coz its 'like omg...i wanna go there again *faints*'

I swear you people are soo damn cold blooded! Yuk!

what am i ignoring? you haven't given proof they were ever there. noone knows who they are. i could write an article about a kid in a jail without ever having been to the country. if you can show me proof, then i will admit you are right, but the word of a person who may or may not exist is not admittable evidence. and hey, ignore whatever you like, the rest of the world does, hence the double standard. its that opinion that is partly to blame for the conflict.

 

[sam04u]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Oh yes because I have Israel's tax return for the last 60+ years lying around my house.

Unacceptable. You can't make such claims when there is no evidence of it. There are literally thousands of Palestinians who still own the keys to the very homes they were driven out of. Claiming that they sold these homes is preposterous and ludicrous. You don't need tax returns, because nobody will have this evidence. Because it did not happen. Infact, I think it was Article 8 on the U.N resolution considering conditions of the Israeli state which said people who were permanently displaced should be compensated. They never were.

Whoops sorry, maybe the Israeli Government has every transaction receipt from 1930. Maybe you have it and are hiding it, you're a cheeky one, oh yes you are, oohh yes you are (blows rasberries)

I would expect an illegitimate government that makes such claims should keep the evidence. The problem is there is no evidence, because people came by the boat full to the land which they now claim is there own. "They came like refugees and immigrants"

It's interesting how this issue has been brought up before and interestingly enough you are giving the same response as you did then. You KNOW that what you are asking for is rubbish.

You are making rubbish claims, ofcourse I would ask for this evidence. The Palestinians would sell their souls first before selling their right to live in their country, to pray in their mosques, to live and travel into Jerusalem freely. (Which is their right under U.N which robbed them of their land.)

Israel has a democratic, legal and moral right to exist...evn though it is inhabited by dark hairy ape people with hooked noses and bulging money pockets...

I disagree with the majority of what you have said there. "Ape people" insinuates that they are underevolved, which is a lie. By studying the Eugenics which has taken place in the modern day Israeli people suggests this is not the truth.

The "arrangement" in Palestine is a democracy too. But instead of accepting their presidency, the U.S imposes embargoes and sanctions against them. Using the term democratic and democracy does not make the terrorist nation that Israel is any prettier. It is still a disgusting degradation of human morals, because of what it has done.

I don't really want to go into everything else you posted because there is simplicity in your position:

Major lie.

You wish to substitue one nation for another.

That is not true. Infact, that is what Israel did. They substituted the Palestinian peoples land with their own.

You can say that Israel is in the wrong.

Infact I can prove and show people how Israel is "in the wrong."

You can say it was Palestinian people's land first

They had been living there for over 30 generations, and were made refugees into neighbouring states while people from other countries (Yes I know that some Jews lived there, we're not discussing them.) came in and displaced those living there.

but in the end you wish to do whatever you are condeming

Incorrect. I have suggested a one-state solution, where there is an international border. With two languages, two religions and two people. Entwined into land they have history with. with the palestinian refugees being allowed to return home.

Otherwish, a two-state solution where the Palestinians have a strip of land (connecting from the north of Israel) where the Palestinians living in Israel, Gaza and West Bank will have the freedom of movement, and be connected. Rather than being seperated in-between three states.

They need their dignity and the right to a unified country. Not to be split and trapped inbetween 3 states, without the freedoms granted to all people by the United Nations.

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

showed you earlier there is no historical precedent for a palestinian return to the lands they fled from after inciting the 48 war. a war which they lost.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

so killing for a cause is acceptable? why is the israeli "killing" less acceptable? becayse you don't aggree with the cause?

No i have no problem when they say they are killing coz the person is a terrorist, but when you look at it. These people are killing coz Israelis took all that was theirs. Im not going to keep repeating all the people they kill, but comparing the Israelis and the Palestinians together, its obvious who has killed more/destroyed their lives might i add.

they've never done anything other than kill people, so how would you know what compromising will bring. you naysay with no evidence to show otherwise.

Why dont you prove they will fight if they get what they want. The whole damned point of fighting is to get what they want!

i never said that. i said that i don't believe they are being tortured. the article i had shows that they are treated better as a whole in an israeli jail than in their homes. if they are in jail, then i maintain that they are not innocent. if you are in jail, you have been arrested for a reason. whether or not you aggree that it is a valid reason is your business.

Reason why i stayed away from these forums for so long^^^^^^

And you've seen every single person and know that every single one of them deserves to be in there? Well please show me this article which says all of this.

Why dont you get another article which shows that all of those people in gaol seem to like it there, coz i seem to find my more reliable considering the pilot even said they were meant to bomb random places.

Hizballah brings the conflicts to innocents by hiding behind them and using them as human shields. stop blaming israel for the cowardice of terrorists. if you hide amongst innocent people, then you don't get to complain when they die as a result of your actions.

And Israelis use this as an escuse to kill innocent people.

correct, i didnt agrue with that. So why must innocent people die in the process? They know where these people, are since they can blow buildings up [and theyre in them] so why don wait till they go back to their people and kill them all? Hard maybe, will take time, in the end will work. If it doesnt then what have they lost? people, pleasethey have killed thousands!

actually islamic fascists have been persecuting jews for centuries, far longer than israel has existed. this is just the latest in a long line of excuses, right up there with "they stole all our money, or they have big noses".

and no they weren't. their lives were shit before israel. there was nothing in the country but swamps and camels. compare israel with the arabic world, and you have a society with the highest techonological development. your computer chips (are you using intel) are developed in israel. your mobile phones were invented there. you want them to stop existing, then please stop using the stuff that was invented there.

Well, better they live like that then dying at random. Or is dying better?

LOL. I want to see a real life one

i didn't mention the holocaust to evoke pathos heba. i mentioned because the arabs attacked people who had just been through hell. no honor, no nobility. just bloodthirsty hate. thats my point. they attacked them right off the boats.

Why should they care? Do you care about the way the current Palestinians are treated? Did the Israelis then care about the Palestinians. You could go through trouble but you dont have to make it out like everyone has to sit down and do what you say coz of what you went through.

all israel has to do to be condemned is exist, its never stopped people before. i don't belive israel is doing things wrong. so duh i side with them. i belive the HAMAS and FATAH unified bs is wrong and inherently evil. and i oppose them regardless of their actions.

At this rate, i dont see why they should stop killing the israelis. If you all seem to think they are in the wrong and Israel is right.

they don't just hand out leaflets, they encourage people to break the law. encouraging people in the army not to listen to orders or not to show up is against the law. when you break the law, you go to jail. so they are put in jail. they are inciting social hatred. they get what they deserve.

Ever heard of freedom of speech, i guess that doesnt work in Israel. And my mums doctor [a Jew] said that you could pay instead of joining the army, so there are alternatives.

what am i ignoring? you haven't given proof they were ever there. noone knows who they are. i could write an article about a kid in a jail without ever having been to the country. if you can show me proof, then i will admit you are right, but the word of a person who may or may not exist is not admittable evidence. and hey, ignore whatever you like, the rest of the world does, hence the double standard. its that opinion that is partly to blame for the conflict.

How is there a double standard? What proof do you want?

You shoed me stuff and i said ok, yet you go on and say this is wrong even though the stuff you post could be from anyone.

You dont believe anything bad and Israel and YOU talk about double standards

You showed me ONE website which says kids like Israel gaols, i showed you ONE which says the opposite, yet you go on about nothing.

you people want peace, when someone says an agreement, you dont like it and likes like 'but what if..?'

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Why dont you prove they will fight if they get what they want. The whole damned point of fighting is to get what they want!

and that point justifies anything you condemn israel for doing.

correct, i didnt agrue with that. So why must innocent people die in the process? They know where these people, are since they can blow buildings up [and theyre in them] so why don wait till they go back to their people and kill them all? Hard maybe, will take time, in the end will work. If it doesnt then what have they lost? people, pleasethey have killed thousands!

because in the mean time the terrorists are firing katyusha rockets from lebanon into the north of israel and killing people. why should they wait? blame hizballah and the lebanese govt.

Well, better they live like that then dying at random. Or is dying better?

no idea, never tried either. just showing that if the palestinians were able to compromise, their quality of life would exponentially increase.

Why should they care? Do you care about the way the current Palestinians are treated? Did the Israelis then care about the Palestinians. You could go through trouble but you dont have to make it out like everyone has to sit down and do what you say coz of what you went through.

because they are one of the largest abusers of human rights in the world, but they complain. i really dont think that jews should be treated differently because of the holocaust. just showing how little respect for human life the arabs had.

At this rate, i dont see why they should stop killing the israelis. If you all seem to think they are in the wrong and Israel is right.

so you support terrorism then. like i said, they haven't tried anything but killing jews. i don't have to prove that their life will be better if they stop, if they stop, their lives will get better. fact, not fiction. but hey, if supporting terrorist governments, and erecting another anti-semitic islamo-fascist govt that can screw over their people and stagnate for another millenia is your idea of a good life, then sure.

Ever heard of freedom of speech, i guess that doesnt work in Israel. And my mums doctor [a Jew] said that you could pay instead of joining the army, so there are alternatives.

freedom of speech does not shield you from breaking the law which is what they did which is why they are in jail. they are free to leave, they just choose not to. their own stupid fault.

How is there a double standard? What proof do you want?

You shoed me stuff and i said ok, yet you go on and say this is wrong even though the stuff you post could be from anyone.

You dont believe anything bad and Israel and YOU talk about double standards

You showed me ONE website which says kids like Israel gaols, i showed you ONE which says the opposite, yet you go on about nothing.

you people want peace, when someone says an agreement, you dont like it and likes like 'but what if..?'

i didn't say it was wrong. i just said it didn't show proof. i don't make a quantifying statement either way, because it is an unprovable claim. you can see that by my remark

you haven't given proof they were ever there.

s'all i meant.

and as for wanting peace, the only peace that has been offered to the jews is their destruction. so i don't really see your point. my people are trying to compromise, shown by the palestinian control of gaza and the west bank. the arabic people want the destruction of the jewish people all over the world. i think its past time for the arabs to make a compromise.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

You ARE repeating yourself.
You have double standards, you expect Israelis to fight, yet when Palestinians fight its wrong. They both figt for the same cause.
You dont seem to care about any innocent civilians who die in the process, as long as a terrorist dies.
You are here in Australia and connot agree with even a tiny solution, and you expect the Israeli gov to agree with something? You expect too much. Palestinians are treated like crap, you dont care [dont bother its obvious]
Palestinians fire rockets at Israelis and Israelis just ...protect themselves, by launching more than one.
Not all Israelis are the same you say, but all arabs have 'liittle respect for human life'
I support terrorism ok..whatever ..you're the one who finds it normal to kill cildren sine theres a terrorist in the building, coz its not israels fault..how could it be, they are the people who introduced freedom, and freedom of speech to the world

and as for wanting peace, the only peace that has been offered to the jews is their destruction. so i don't really see your point. my people are trying to compromise, shown by the palestinian control of gaza and the west bank. the arabic people want the destruction of the jewish people all over the world. i think its past time for the arabs to make a compromise.

So now its a us vs them?

http://www.jfjfp.org/

I just read a few articles where the Jews have said that the whole Israel thing is wrong, they shouldnt treat Palestinians that way, but all Jews said was they they are ashamed of them etc etc ..

Have a good life know that all these Palestinians died for coz of YOUR people.

Umm..i stole 1/3 of your sig Sam ..thanks [meant to be asking ..but meh]