State Ranking (2 Viewers)

[shaon0]

i was one of those people who came 5th, and i am absolutely sure i got full marks in the final exam (and came 1st internally). if i were to put a guess on it, i'd say 20 people in the state got full marks in 2007.

it all comes down to the method you solved particular questions that determine whether you can join the state ranker's list.

Serious? I didn't know that. Is it based on how elegantly you solved a problem opposed to algebra bashing?

 

[youngminii]

Serious? I didn't know that. Is it based on how elegantly you solved a problem opposed to algebra bashing?

No way in hell. Do they actually expect high school students to spend time working to make their solutions 'elegant'? Especially within a time constraint? If that were to ever enter the Syllabus, nobody in their right minds (except child prodigies) would ever choose Maths.

As long as the working is correct and leads to the correct answer, you'll get full marks.

 

[kaz1]

No way in hell. Do they actually expect high school students to spend time working to make their solutions 'elegant'? Especially within a time constraint? If that were to ever enter the Syllabus, nobody in their right minds (except child prodigies) would ever choose Maths.

As long as the working is correct and leads to the correct answer, you'll get full marks.

But solving a problem more elegantly would take less time. You just need to be good enough to find that way.

 

[youngminii]

But solving a problem more elegantly would take less time. You just need to be good enough to find that way.

Touche
Unfortunately, I don't have the insight to solve elegantly. You should see my working out, it's rubbish. I take the longest, most disgusting route, especially in proofs. Ugh.

Anyways, that's besides my point, elegancy would not directly affect your mark/state ranking chance (it could indirectly affect it since you'd be faster etc.)

 

[Patar]

New ruse principal isn't as charismatic as Mr Quinlan. He was awesome, it was due to him that Ruse went uphill like heck. New principal makes long gay speeches and talks in a convoluted manner. Probably does not care about education and keeping Ruse at the top as much as Quinlan did. Very few people like her.
Plus a lot of good teachers are leaving. Mr Wearne, (Quinlan's right hand man) is going this year. He's really good too. That, and the general lower quality of cohorts 2-3 years down the line will result in Ruse's slow decline.

zomg!

ours does the whole long gay speeches and talking in a convoulted manner too!!

I knew those boxes that appeared on the last day of Year 11 were supplies from 'back home' - and that WAS her spacecraft cunningly disgused in the staff carpark.

heck. glad I got out while I still could!

 

[gurmies]

agreed^

 

[shaon0]

Touche
Unfortunately, I don't have the insight to solve elegantly. You should see my working out, it's rubbish. I take the longest, most disgusting route, especially in proofs. Ugh.

Anyways, that's besides my point, elegancy would not directly affect your mark/state ranking chance (it could indirectly affect it since you'd be faster etc.)

Well, if a state ranker is sure that he got 100% then u can't really argue with him.

 

[youngminii]

Well, if a state ranker is sure that he got 100% then u can't really argue with him.

Whereas I do respect him for being a state ranker, how can he possibly know he got 100%? If he did, I'm preeeeeeeeeetty sure he'd be first in the state
You know, 'cause 100% usually means first
Since it's like, the best mark you can possibly get

..Unless it was their internals that separated them?
Either way, it has NOTHING to do with elegance of solutions.

 

[shaon0]

Whereas I do respect him for being a state ranker, how can he possibly know he got 100%? If he did, I'm preeeeeeeeeetty sure he'd be first in the state
You know, 'cause 100% usually means first
Since it's like, the best mark you can possibly get

..Unless it was their internals that separated them?
Either way, it has NOTHING to do with elegance of solutions.

And you know how? Oh wait u came 1st in the state.

 

[Patar]

Originally Posted by youngminii
Whereas I do respect him for being a state ranker, how can he possibly know he got 100%? If he did, I'm preeeeeeeeeetty sure he'd be first in the state
You know, 'cause 100% usually means first
Since it's like, the best mark you can possibly get

..Unless it was their internals that separated them?
Either way, it has NOTHING to do with elegance of solutions.

if I may interlude with my complete lack of experience on this topic

but one of my Ancient teachers (Ms Terry) is a HSC judge for Ancient History. they were trying to decide upon a state ranking for a student in that year

this was last year

they brought the nominated entries before a panel of judges to find which was technically the best, most well-reasoned, (for ancient history), responses.

and that's how they did it. she got 100%. but she got third in state.

this may also carry over to Maths.

but that's pure guesswork on my part.

 

[Timothy.Siu]

if I may interlude with my complete lack of experience on this topic

but one of my Ancient teachers (Ms Terry) is a HSC judge for Ancient History. they were trying to decide upon a state ranking for a student in that year

this was last year

they brought the nominated entries before a panel of judges to find which was technically the best, most well-reasoned, (for ancient history), responses.

and that's how they did it. she got 100%. but she got third in state.

this may also carry over to Maths.

but that's pure guesswork on my part.

u cant really have an answer that is MORE correct for maths, i mean u can have answers that may be better, but it wud be stupid if u use that to discriminate whos better because at the end of the day, u just want to correct answer with working out and if all that is fine u cant do much to separate people with the same marks

 

[Patar]

I was just going off what I've been told for Ancient.

"You" can do anything you like if you're BOS examiners.

They need to determine who has better answered. I think its fair if they need to discriminate between those who get 100% in this way. We are talking about the elite of the elite, who have already gotten full marks. They can't just go 'oh well, everyone gets Rank 1 cause they got 100%'

They also can't go to internals either, which may have been marked according to school guidelines and against an easier or harder cohort.

And sure you can have a better answer for Maths =) - the better explained on paper. More steps, more logical flow on the paper. Just like English. Just like Ancient. In a more concise form of course.

 

[lyounamu]

lol. Good work, Lyounamu. You mustn't have talked to many of them.

Hahaha, yeah.

Haven't you seen a thread on the exam thoughts forum? Most people thought that this exam was harder. Your non-existent knowledge of 3 unit got pwned by the general consensus from BoS. And please keep your nose out of what you don't know.

Seriously, you pretend that you know more than you know. I have a lot of respect for what Kony has done. However, I don't think he would have got a full mark. It would be stupid to give state ranks on how elegantly you did the exam - wouldn't it be unfair? Mathematics is not supposed to be like that. How can someone judge how elegant it is????

To Patar: Are you sure?

If you ask live.fast who came 3rd for Ancient, he got 100 too....what's wrong witih that?? I don't get it.

 

[dp624]

Yes, I agree with the several posters. You won't get extra marks for the elegance of solutions, as I believe that there is enough mark discrimination to separate the candidates well.
Also people, you must realise that a moderated 100 does not mean a real 100% in exam. That's why people who get 100 might not actually be first and stuff.

My thoughts

 

[lolokay]

if it's not judged by which answer is "better", then what would it be judged by? you can't have more than 1 person with the same state rank can you?

 

[kony]

well there are ties, occasionally, but they appear so infrequently that you'd bet on there being some other means of distinguishing top students other than using raw marks.

in fact, what you'd really expect had the case been that only raw mark is used as a yardstick would be a case where multiple people are sitting on 1st, multiple people sitting on 2nd, and so on, but this never happens.

i would also add that people at the top are nearly always topping their school, so internal marks will be considered, but will not change the fact that there should be more ties.

 

[Patar]

Also people, you must realise that a moderated 100 does not mean a real 100% in exam. That's why people who get 100 might not actually be first and stuff.

My thoughts

This may be true I don't know, but there are a few people who DO score 100% raw, and are of course in the running for state ranks. They don't all get first place.

The entries are still given full marks, but they are judged personally for the purposes of state ranks.

If you ask live.fast who came 3rd for Ancient, he got 100 too....what's wrong witih that?? I don't get it.

I guess that, unless the people who came first and second got 101/100, they used the panel of judges that my teacher said the responses were brought before. And decided from there.

Sure, those top few all got 100/100 - but in terms of a state rank the HSC judges (note: not markers, judges, though all judges are markers) judged the better response over and above the mark value.

the student I was talking about was Amy Maguire -- she and that other guy both got 100 in terms of raw marks I think. But as it went, the judges decided that one or two entries were better than hers and the other who came equal third.

I believe that there is enough mark discrimination to separate the candidates well.

Not if five or so people get 100/100 raw. This can and does happen.

There needs to be a way to judge; the markers cannot go to internals because of the inconsistent marking scheme across schools.

I'm only saying what happens in Ancient. There are judges there who determine the rankings of the top, high-scoring, 100/100 answers.

Perhaps this is different in Mathematics, but I do doubt it strongly -

well there are ties, occasionally, but they appear so infrequently that you'd bet on there being some other means of distinguishing top students other than using raw marks.

Exactly, internals can't be used, raw marks are often equally 100/100... so they have judges to decide on the best answers.

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[lyounamu]

About the elegance of the solution and what not, I think there is more to that. For an extension subject, they consider the extension results as well. Doesn't that mean your result of 4 unit may be considered if you get the same result? (i.e. if people who do 3 unit do 4 unit as well)

I am not talking without evidence. According to the statistics archives, that's what they said.

So in my opinion (backed up by the evidence from the statistics archives),

84/84 in 3 unit and 110/120 in 4 unit person will get a higher state rank than someone who got: 84/84 in 3 unit and 108/120.

 

[Trebla]

About the elegance of the solution and what not, I think there is more to that. For an extension subject, they consider the extension results as well. Doesn't that mean your result of 4 unit may be considered if you get the same result? (i.e. if people who do 3 unit do 4 unit as well)

I am not talking without evidence. According to the statistics archives, that's what they said.

So in my opinion (backed up by the evidence from the statistics archives),

84/84 in 3 unit and 110/120 in 4 unit person will get a higher state rank than someone who got: 84/84 in 3 unit and 108/120.

Haha, funny thing is I know one of girls who topped the state in Extension 1 in 2006.
She only got 94 in Extension 2....lol.
Whereas the girl who topped Extension 2 in 2006 got equal 3rd in Extension 1 (also with 100).

This may suggest a difference in raw marks perhaps if we follow the fact that there is consideration in Extension 2. Though, if we go by the theory that there is a difference in raw marks, then it should imply that full raw marks had actually been in achieved in 2006.

Or maybe it might be as kony suggested, due to more "elegant" working. I've seen both their working set outs and the girl who topped Extension 1 writes in a bit more "elegant" way than the other lol because she writes in a bit of explanation with her working, a bit like what some textbooks do.

 

[lyounamu]

Haha, funny thing is I know one of girls who topped the state in Extension 1 in 2006.
She only got 94 in Extension 2....lol. Whereas the girl who topped Extension 2 in 2006 got equal 3rd in Extension 1.

In that case, I am assuming that she got the top 3 unit result. (in terms of raw mark)