The Abortion Debate (continued) (1 Viewer)

[katie_tully]

See now it's not really the same. Abortion is neither murder nor manslaughter. Until around 22 weeks, a feotus cannot live outside the womb. There has been the occasion exception to the rule, but I think those all ended up with some form of brain damage.

In conclusion, as the development of the feotus rests on the well being of the mother it makes sense that the rights of the mother be considered before the rights of, for lack of better word, a parasite. I say parasite because the foetus uses the resources of the mother without contributing to the mothers well being.

Until you've had the burden of carrying another life in you for 9 months, I doubt you can properly sympathise with the strain one goes through whilst caring for an unborn feotus. That is why, in my opinion, you are ill equipped to make a decision on something such as abortion.

It'd be like me telling you what you can and cannot do with your testicles.

Nice try.

 

[dagwoman]

See now it's not really the same. Abortion is neither murder nor manslaughter. Until around 22 weeks, a feotus cannot live outside the womb. There has been the occasion exception to the rule, but I think those all ended up with some form of brain damage.

In conclusion, as the development of the feotus rests on the well being of the mother it makes sense that the rights of the mother be considered before the rights of, for lack of better word, a parasite. I say parasite because the foetus uses the resources of the mother without contributing to the mothers well being.

Until you've had the burden of carrying another life in you for 9 months, I doubt you can properly sympathise with the strain one goes through whilst caring for an unborn feotus. That is why, in my opinion, you are ill equipped to make a decision on something such as abortion.

It'd be like me telling you what you can and cannot do with your testicles.

Nice try.

Well said.

 

[bshoc]

I would reply but I dont want to repeat myself for the fourth or fifth time.

You're introducing unsupported technicalities un-necessarily, as they say, "you broke it, you bought it" .. likewise "you took a risk and concieved, you take care of it"

 

[katie_tully]

Yes I've read some of your previous arguments. It must get mundane repeating the same lame dribble over and over.

Do you masturbate? I would hate to think that you're killing innocent sperm, potential life.
I hope you've never had a wet dream either, I'd kill me to think what a waste of potential life that was

 

[dagwoman]

Isn't choosing to have an abortion one way of "taking care of it", as you said, bshoc?

 

[bshoc]

Yes I've read some of your previous arguments. It must get mundane repeating the same lame dribble over and over.

Do you masturbate? I would hate to think that you're killing innocent sperm, potential life.
I hope you've never had a wet dream either, I'd kill me to think what a waste of potential life that was

Well you haven't read enough then, yes sperm and eggs are "potential" life and thus do not constitute a right to life, a fetus is a unique being, something isn't "potential" when it already is what you claim its potential to be.

 

[bshoc]

Isn't choosing to have an abortion one way of "taking care of it", as you said, bshoc?

Oh yes and murder is a great way of "taking care" of someone you don't like, likewise tax evasion is a great way of "taking care" of your taxes.

 

[katie_tully]

Well no up until around 22 weeks it is still 'potential' life because there is no 100% guarantee that it will survive the pregnancy full term. It's still 'potential' life because it relies 100% on the mother and the health of the mother to survive full term.

I am due to give birth to a boy via c section next week. I am having a c section because I have placenta previa. My placenta is blocking the OS and giving birth naturally would cause the placenta to rupture, therefore I could possibly bleed to death and the child would possibly die inside my womb as the umbilical cord would no longe be delivering oxygen to him.
Up until the very moment I deliver this child he is 100% dependent on my health. There is nothing I wouldn't do for this child, but I'm not about to lie and say that pregnancy is a fantastic experience. It isn't, it's shit. It's uncomfortable, physically, mentally and emotionally draining. After the birth it will remain physically, mentally and emotionally draining.

Women should decide whether they're capable of going through with this and if they're not, they should not be forced to go through with the process. This applies to teenagers and it applies to 30 something women who already have 3 children.

As you'll never go through the physical process of having a child, I still believe you're ill informed to decide what a woman should and should not do.

 

[bshoc]

Well no up until around 22 weeks it is still 'potential' life because there is no 100% guarantee that it will survive the pregnancy full term. It's still 'potential' life because it relies 100% on the mother and the health of the mother to survive full term.

There is no 100% guarantee anyone will survive a given period of time, so what? Reliance on a mother makes it "dependant life" not "potential life," not at all unlike somebody hooked up to a life support machine, children depend on their parents for life long before and long after birth anyway. A baby birthed in the middle of the forest and abandoned by its mother would not survive either, I guess that makes it ok to kill newborns as well.

Women should decide whether they're capable of going through with this and if they're not, they should not be forced to go through with the process. This applies to teenagers and it applies to 30 something women who already have 3 children.

Women who are stupid enough to "accidendly" fall pregnant are too stupid to make decisions relating to the life or murder of a child.

As you'll never go through the physical process of having a child, I still believe you're ill informed to decide what a woman should and should not do.

You'll never be a soldier or security agent yet you hold values and ideas about national security, you'll never yourself be a farmer yet you hold ideas about the AWB, there are litereally countless examples of indirectly impacting opinions and values, so what?

 

[dagwoman]

Women who are stupid enough to "accidendly" fall pregnant are too stupid to make decisions relating to the life or murder of a child.

Interesting that you don't hold the man in any way responsible for pregnancy. As for your earlier comment comparing abortion to murder, we will never reach an agreeance on this as you obviously believe it is murder, while I do not.

 

[bshoc]

Interesting that you don't hold the man in any way responsible for pregnancy.

Who falls preganant? The only way a man is responsible for pregnancy is in the case of rape, otherwise pregnancy is the prime responsibility of the woman since its a potential consequence of a consensual act, the same way if a man revieves an STD from a woman its his responsibility, if one willingly takes a risk with consequences, one must be prepared for those consequences, otherwise the risk should not be taken.

As for your earlier comment comparing abortion to murder, we will never reach an agreeance on this as you obviously believe it is murder, while I do not.

No we'll never reach agreement because you're ignorant of the truth and love to gloss over facts for convenience whilst I do not.

 

[dagwoman]

A woman falls pregnant because she has sex with a man who ejaculates. Both are equally responsible, unless it is rape, in which case the man is totally responsible, and also a disgusting individual who should be locked away.

It's extremely arrogant to think your opinion is the truth, and that all other opinions are inferior.

 

[imaginarylife]

Falling pregnant 'accidentally' is not related to intelligence (obviously). If precautions are taken, which they generally are, it is both the responsibility of the man and the women.

No we'll never reach agreement because you're ignorant of the truth and love to gloss over facts for convenience whilst I do not.

truth is subjective. obviuosly you possess a different view upon what the truth is. You too gloss over facts and interpret facts for your own convenience, everyone does, it is how arguments are made.

Personally, i believe abortion is not murder. I do not believe the foetus becomes it's own life/human being until it is developed enough to survive birth. the foetus cannot think independantly, it cannot live independantly, has never lived or thought independantly.

Abortion should be the choice of the mother (the pregnant person), it is she who must cope with pregnancy it is she who must develop and create the child, it should be her decision. And it cannot be said that by falling pregnant she has already chosen, as more often than not precautions have been taken against pregnancy.

 

[katie_tully]

Oh lord.

There is no 100% guarantee anyone will survive a given period of time, so what? Reliance on a mother makes it "dependant life" not "potential life," not at all unlike somebody hooked up to a life support machine, children depend on their parents for life long before and long after birth anyway. A baby birthed in the middle of the forest and abandoned by its mother would not survive either, I guess that makes it ok to kill newborns as well.

That's hardly worth responding to as once again you're linking abortion to murder which it clearly is not. You're also underestimating the love a mother has for a foetus, even if she decides to terminate the pregnancy. As you obviously cannot comprehend the idea that an abortion can often be the best option for mother and child, I'd expect nothing less from you.

The children that die every year before the age of 5 months as a result of things such as methadone overdoses and neglect, you believe they should have suffered such fates purely because their mothers were 'stupid enough to get pregnant accidently'? Quite clearly you're a narrow minded moron who can only lump this argument into one category, murder.

Women who are stupid enough to "accidendly" fall pregnant are too stupid to make decisions relating to the life or murder of a child.

Who falls preganant? The only way a man is responsible for pregnancy is in the case of rape, otherwise pregnancy is the prime responsibility of the woman since its a potential consequence of a consensual act, the same way if a man revieves an STD from a woman its his responsibility, if one willingly takes a risk with consequences, one must be prepared for those consequences, otherwise the risk should not be taken.

Well there you go. You have just admitted that pregnancy is 100% the responsibility of the female with the exception of rape. Therefore I believe you're also relinquishing your right to make any decisions regarding a females pregnancy, including her right to abortion. As you've just admitted pregnancy is NOT your responsibility, neither is abortion. In other words, shut the fuck up fool.

You'll never be a soldier or security agent yet you hold values and ideas about national security, you'll never yourself be a farmer yet you hold ideas about the AWB, there are litereally countless examples of indirectly impacting opinions and values, so what?

I spent 13 the last 13 years of my life on a farm. My parents both still live on their farm. My partner is the son of former farmers. I live in a rural community and one day I may decide to get back into farming. That makes me more of a farmer than you.

Likening abortion to one having an opinion on something is trivial as the AWB scandal further demonstrates that you're a moron.

 

[bshoc]

Oh lord.

Not on your side.

That's hardly worth responding to as once again you're linking abortion to murder which it clearly is not. You're also underestimating the love a mother has for a foetus, even if she decides to terminate the pregnancy. As you obviously cannot comprehend the idea that an abortion can often be the best option for mother and child, I'd expect nothing less from you.

No I didn't link abortion to murder, but rather made the obvious point of duty of care. Your excuse for abortion is that a child three or four months after conception cannot live without reliance on its mother, taking your absolutist logic to its logical conclusion, neither can a 1 year old child, thus making it ok for us to "abort" 1 year old children.

And no death is never a better option than life for children.

The children that die every year before the age of 5 months as a result of things such as methadone overdoses and neglect, you believe they should have suffered such fates purely because their mothers were 'stupid enough to get pregnant accidently'? Quite clearly you're a narrow minded moron who can only lump this argument into one category, murder.

How is getting sucked to pieces by a vacuum tube or being poisoned by human pesticide any better?

I believe all parents have a duty of care to look after their children from existance onwards.

Well there you go. You have just admitted that pregnancy is 100% the responsibility of the female with the exception of rape. Therefore I believe you're also relinquishing your right to make any decisions regarding a females pregnancy, including her right to abortion. As you've just admitted pregnancy is NOT your responsibility, neither is abortion. In other words, shut the fuck up fool.

Three points:

1. I never claimed it was
2. I never said it was the mothers decision either
3. There is no such thing as a right to an abortion

Both mother and father have a duty of care relevant to their responsibility of the time, it is the role of the government to draw the boundaries and step in when those boundaries are broken, abortion is one of the boundaries.

I spent 13 the last 13 years of my life on a farm. My parents both still live on their farm. My partner is the son of former farmers. I live in a rural community and one day I may decide to get back into farming. That makes me more of a farmer than you.

No, one is either a farmer or they're not, go harvest some wheat and then penis wave.

Likening abortion to one having an opinion on something is trivial as the AWB scandal further demonstrates that you're a moron.

I likened it to things other than the AWB, such as national security. Unless national security is trivial ..

 

[bshoc]

A woman falls pregnant because she has sex with a man who ejaculates. Both are equally responsible, unless it is rape, in which case the man is totally responsible, and also a disgusting individual who should be locked away.

It's extremely arrogant to think your opinion is the truth, and that all other opinions are inferior.

If this were almost any other issue than this one, I would *almost* agree.

If sex is consensual then indavidual ramifications belong to the indaviduals since they both willingly took the risk, therefore pregnancy is the concern of the woman almost completely

 

[katie_tully]

No I didn't link abortion to murder, but rather made the obvious point of duty of care. Your excuse for abortion is that a child three or four months after conception cannot live without reliance on its mother, taking your absolutist logic to its logical conclusion, neither can a 1 year old child, thus making it ok for us to "abort" 1 year old children.

And no death is never a better option than life for children.

Mon cherie, I never gave those as excuses for abortion. And you did link abortion to murder, as when I suggested abortion be retrospective, you mentioned murder. See the link? Eh?

How is getting sucked to pieces by a vacuum tube or being poisoned by human pesticide any better?

I believe all parents have a duty of care to look after their children from existance onwards.

You didn't mention 'parents' in your previous rant, instead you said this;

Who falls preganant? The only way a man is responsible for pregnancy is in the case of rape, otherwise pregnancy is the prime responsibility of the woman since its a potential consequence of a consensual act, the same way if a man revieves an STD from a woman its his responsibility, if one willingly takes a risk with consequences, one must be prepared for those consequences, otherwise the risk should not be taken.

Therefore as you've just relinquished the responsibility of pregnancy from the man, the responsibility of abortion is no longer the males either. Therefore I can't quite comprehend why it is you feel it's your place to impose such ridiculous ideals on females?

Three points:

1. I never claimed it was
2. I never said it was the mothers decision either
3. There is no such thing as a right to an abortion

Both mother and father have a duty of care relevant to their responsibility of the time, it is the role of the government to draw the boundaries and step in when those boundaries are broken, abortion is one of the boundaries.

Congratulations, you've contradicted yourself.
By stating previously that 'pregnancy is the prime responsibility of the woman' I can't see how you're possibly saying anything other than 'men have no responsibility'. You've dug yourself into a rather deep hole and there is no way you can recant on what you've said whilst trying to maintain a viable argument.

Here is an idea. You don't agree with abortions? Fantastic, don't have one.

 

[dagwoman]

Bshoc, come back when you can actually refute katie-tully's argument. And stop comparing abortion to murder, as we've already been through it.

 

[bshoc]

Bshoc, come back when you can actually refute katie-tully's argument. And stop comparing abortion to murder, as we've already been through it.

And you come back once you can make something other than stupid groupie statements, judging by your history: never.

If you think something was insuffiently responded to, point it out, dont make random statements with no possible hope of backing them up.

If you feel that abortion is not murder, demostrate how a killing unique human being does not constitute it.

Tully never had a decent argument that could stand up to scrutiny, and you didn't even have an argument full stop.

And I'm so tired of your "argument" bullshit, all you do all the time is babble on about how somebody's argument is wrong without actually paying attention to the content.

 

[dagwoman]

Personal insults just show a lack of substance bshoc, and I'm not going to respond to them.

I was not making groupie comments but supporting other posters' posts which may have otherwise been ignored. You claimed I (and others) glossed over points, and I was pointing out your hypocrisy.

I don't believe you have stated any good reason why abortion is the same as murder. I believe that a foetus before an age at which it can survive independently of its mother's body is not considered "living", or with a "soul", and the abortion of such a foetus is thus not considered murder. I believe an abortion is a medical procedure that should be solely up to the woman undergoing it.