The Ultimate Decision of my Life. (2 Viewers)

[Vagabond]

Ok guys.

I'm hoping some of you experienced business/commerce students can draw upon your experience, know-how... umm.. knowledge and scope of the future to give me your opinions on this decision.

Basically this is what's happened...

I got cadetship offers for both KPMG and PricewaterhouseCoopers..

This already was a big wow for me. Thinking about it has driven me nuts. Though for the sake of this topic, I'm already leaning towards one of them (which is irrelevant at this point) and basically everything was set.

Then I just got an offer for the UTS: Bachelor of Accounting Co-op. Ok, now things are messed up... Other than the fact I didn't think I stood a chance at this thing, I can't seem to be able to weigh up the pros and cons of cadetship vs co-op.

This is where I'd like some advice!

The way I see it:

Cadetship:
+ Faster acceleration within the company (from the cocktail party I went to there was a clear trend... trainees were becoming managers a lot younger)
+ More pay and material benefits (superannuation, laptop, subsidies, etc)
+ More work experience
+ More CA support (ie 2 years experience already in the pocket... materials+buddies to support CA study guaranteed)
+ Job secured
+ Only need 89-93 UAI
- More work in the short-term
- Less choice.. ie. I must do a CA.. which is probably a good thing.. but I think it would be harder to move onto other fields such as Finance, etc?

Co-op
+ Less study-time
+ More social life... (debatable but def. more free time)
+ Paid to go to uni
+ Diverse work experience
+ I can do honours (I think)
+ 100% employment rate ...
- ... at a range of salaries
- 95 UAI
- Still need to apply for jobs at the end of it all


That's my brainstorm.

Can anybody possibly provide some guidance?

This is mind-boggling for me.. and quite trivial at the same time...

 

[volition]

I think you'll enjoy yourself more with the coop. I think the point about 'still having to apply for jobs' won't be so bad, if you've got the backing and prestige of the coop program. I'm just a first year though, so I don't have any real world experience.

 

[turtleface]

Yes the "still having to apply for jobs" is not an issue.

I think it would be highly unusual for a Co-op to not have a job guaranteed to them by the time you graduate from their placement company/firm. Most co-op placements lead to a job if you want it, especially in the current skills shortage climate, because the cost of training a staff member in their first year is estimated at about $10,000+. (in addition to salary and employmee on-costs)

Of course co-op placement leading to a job is not guaranteed, you have to be a reasonably good worker for them. I think if you're reasonable, they wouldn't have much reason to not want to take you on for the future.

For instance at a big 4 firm like KPMG pretty much every Co-op is invited back (like 95%)

 

[Vagabond]

True but I guess its a flip of the coin in terms of whether you'll get to work in finance for macquarie bank or internal audit for... <insert someone else here> if you know what I mean?

Whats really tempting me about a big4 cadetship is the fact they progress a lot faster (from what I've seen)

 

[turtleface]

Hm yeah its a tough choice, I wouldn't know what to do. I dunno if my below comments are relevant but:

When you say Finance in Macquarie Bank, do you mean the "Finance and Administration Division"? Because thats just Accounting, Internal Audit etc..as well. Anyway, I think places like Macquarie Bank are overrated. I used to think big organisations=big prestige, big money, and yes they do, but then you have to wonder why would people work at smaller places? I frankly have no idea but there must be some reason. (though I have no idea, maybe less stress, more broad roles or something)

Also with Big 4 it is true that career progression is very fast, almost automated, but you'll find everyone in Big 4 are really young, cause its used more as a education facility by many people. Grads come in and are churned out 3-5 years later and go all over the place, and not many people use it as an employer for life. i.e. one of the reasons you advance so fast is cause theres no people to really compete with cause people are churned in and out, just like at uni. (of course this does not apply to the step from Manager to Partner)

Also the ICAA has a new code of practice whereby you can't sign a contract until September (I think)...not sure of the exact details but something like that, you may have to check the website of the ICAA. So you can always give your firm a tentative yes, and if you find another job you like better, then accept that instead. Though I don't know the exact details, I think a lot of people have similar situations. I'm just not sure how it applies to co-ops.

 

[ishq]

BAcc employment rate: 100%.


Also, no matter which sponser you go to work for, you'll be working in their accounting divisions or departments. The only exception to that rule is Goldman Sachs JBWere, where you don't even step foot in accounting

Also, as us first years are finding out now - at this stage of your career, its all about the learning and the different experiences - there is enough time for you to climb the corporate ladder (if you're good enough). Also, we've got both the uni and full-time work experiences - which makes life a little brighter (because believe me, work can get mundane and you need a tight support group who are going through the same things you are to feel upto working after lunch!).

Good Luck

 

[§eraphim]

Co-op.

You get your degree faster, have as good employment prospects when you graduate as cadetship, and you will know a lot more (both work life and uni life) so you can make an informed choice.

 

[seremify007]

Firstly, congratulations on receiving such great offers! You must be an excellent candidate.

In case anyone says I'm biased- I am. I'm on a cadetship and I'm enjoying myself. Yet to do any of the mundane stuff people promised me- that is, I'm yet to do any coffee making or photocopying. Ironically enough, my senior on the job has offered to make me coffee several times; and my partner (being a partner) just took me to a cafe for coffee instead. As for what coop people do; from what I can see, they do the same level of work as a first year cadet (regardless of how much knowledge they have).

The only thing which I don't really like about coops is, if you don't get the employer you want for work experience- then that kindof screws you up. I'm not sure how they pick which coop student gets which employer, but basically, it adds another "what if..." to the equation.

If you've been offered a cadetship with a firm which you really want to work at, then I'd say that's the way to go. This is even moreso if you want to work for the employer as a grad- at least this way, you've saved yourself the risk of not getting in.

In terms of training- despite what the coops think or say; who do you think the firm is going to devote more resources to? The level 72 cadet who will progress and improve over time, and is dedicated to the company (ie. an employee), or the level 80 coop student who is there for 6 months and then they may never see them again. A lot of the work you do as a cadet is proper work. You're a full time consultant after all. I'm not saying that coop students won't get the same experience, but if you're really set on a particular firm/company and you've been offered a position with them- why would you take a scholarship which won't guarantee you a spot with that place?

That being said, the coop program is a great opportunity to enjoy uni life as well as benefit your career; and if you aren't too sure where you really want to go and feel like trying multiple things (eg. you aren't sure if you want to do audit), then that could be the better path for you.

Btw in regards to what ishq said about social life- I think similarly to the UTS coop where they end up grouping together and socialising, cadets tend to group together and socialise. Then there's also when you go out with your division from work. The reality is, the people you spend a lot of time with, ie. your work friends, are probably going to become a big part of your social circle- regardless of whether you're on a coop or cadetship.

 

[Vagabond]

Co-op.

You get your degree faster, have as good employment prospects when you graduate as cadetship, and you will know a lot more (both work life and uni life) so you can make an informed choice.

Whilst I'm still undecided I am in fact leaning a little towards the BAcc right now, so I'm going too try and tip the scales

Whilst a co-op student at BAcc will get their degree faster, a cadet will get their CA faster.

Thats because the CA requires 2 years of formal full-time work experience before starting it.. A cadet has that in their first two years. A co-op student will need to keep working at that experience before being able to start their CA, especially because only one of their work placements will be at a company thats qualified to give the CA experience (I dont think workplaces in commerce companies count).

As for the uni life, a cadetship is a 2+2... The last two years will be fulltime and getting paid to go to uni, much like co-ops are. If anything I'd imagine Ia cadet would have an even bigger social network because they'd know both other cadets and people from their division at work (who for one thing seem quite friendly and enthusastic about friday night drinks).

I've thought a lot of this through and I still have ideas floating around on both sides.

Right now from what I'm thinking a cadetship will accelerate my career faster whilst a co-op will give me more choices. :-/

I'm basing that former statement after talking to the PWC HR manager on the phone.. She said that PWC takes co-op graduates as well.. She said that the pwc cadets still generally progress faster than any graduates, whereever they came from.. Sometimes as much as 5 years to attain the same position.

Then of course comes the fact I'm afraid of the 95 UAI required .. It's below my estimate but I usually enjoy preparing for the worst

Very confuzzled.

 

[roadcone]

accept one cadetship and the co-op ... decide after you get your uai.

i personally would lean towards the cadetship. i'm currently a cadet who goes to uts. much better i think - still get the life and the work experience, but dont have to be at uni quite so much and aren't as hated by the lecturers.

 

[redruM]

Thats because the CA requires 2 years of formal full-time work experience before starting it.

I don't think so.

You need 36 weeks worth of work experience before starting a module. It would generally take 6 years in either case.
Cadetship.
2 yrs full time work
2 yrs full time uni
2 yrs CA + full time work
= 6 yrs

Non-Cadets.
3 yrs full time uni
1 yr full time work
2 yrs CA + full time work
= 6 yrs

I'm not sure of the details for the co-ops, but it should clear up when the CA is done. You basically end up in the same place...Perhaps you had more work experience as a cadet, but then you wouldn't have enjoyed the years when you are in your sexual prime.

 

[Vagabond]

I don't think so.
Perhaps you had more work experience as a cadet, but then you wouldn't have enjoyed the years when you are in your sexual prime.

Perhaps I could sleep my way to the top!

 

[seremify007]

accept one cadetship and the co-op ... decide after you get your uai.

Seriously don't follow that advice. That's the easiest way to piss off a lot of people. Also makes you a bit of a loser for not being able to make up your mind and not being able to stick to your word (ie. contractual obligations).

As for what redruM said, that's true too; but not all CA-qualified people receive the same salary. Even grads and cadet-grads receive vastly different salaries.

But regardless of salary (I mean in the end, you won't be *that* much different), if you feel you'd rather enjoy the uni experience, then maybe the coop is the way to go. But if you're someone who would rather try to get as much hands-on experience in the real world, as well as make a name for yourself (and I am not referring to what you are proposing Vagabond!), then a cadetship might be the better option.

 

[turtleface]

RE: CA
Yeah theres very little arbitrage between the options, normally not enough to make much difference.

The only thing which I don't really like about coops is, if you don't get the employer you want for work experience- then that kindof screws you up. I'm not sure how they pick which coop student gets which employer, but basically, it adds another "what if..." to the equation.

If you've been offered a cadetship with a firm which you really want to work at, then I'd say that's the way to go. This is even moreso if you want to work for the employer as a grad- at least this way, you've saved yourself the risk of not getting in.

Yes this is true. Although I would choose the Co-op program, the risk factor may not be worth it if you really want to work for the firm you got into.

 

[redruM]

RE: CA
Yeah theres very little arbitrage between the options, normally not enough to make much difference.


Yes this is true. Although I would choose the Co-op program, the risk factor may not be worth it if you really want to work for the firm you got into.

Yeah, exactly...the PwC offer may just be too much to put down. Then again, if you were good enough this time, what makes you think you won't be in 3 years time.

 

[roadcone]

Seriously don't follow that advice. That's the easiest way to piss off a lot of people. Also makes you a bit of a loser for not being able to make up your mind and not being able to stick to your word (ie. contractual obligations).

I totally disagree. My reason being that the uts co-op is totally contingent upon you being among the top candidates in terms of your uai. I don't think it has anything to do with not being able to make up your mind, but rather being smart about your future.

With regards to pissing people off by dropping out prior to commencement it is a VERY common thing, I know a lot of people who picked up jobs in december and january because of this. You will find a large number of people accept job offers and then drop out at a later date. This is the main reason why in some years they end up with more cadets than needed as they all accept their offers. You will not hurt your career by being an indecisive 17 year old, all you have to do is be truthful and they will respect you for it.

Maybe my thoughts aren't 'in line' with your moral code of contract acceptance, but it is a common thing to do (i.e. accepting a co-op and a cadetship). My opinion is that if you only go for the co-op you may end up being disappointed, I'm all for keeping options open.

Note - I don't think people should accept two cadetships.

 

[ashhoward]

to be honest i dislike the Bacc with a passion and once you graduate and obtain your CA, that basis of knowledge is uniform with every graduate except for the work experience offered by cadetships.

Its not what you know after the CA to get somewhere but who you know and a cadetship will go a long way in building a strong network of contacts

 

[zorro84]

thats the thing with too many options, u get caught between them. wen it comes down to deciding between a cadetship or co-op, it is personal perference that will lean u one way further than the other. personally, i think the cadetship is more beneficial than just extra money and additional work experience, and i think u justify and agree with me in ur brain storm

faster acceleration in company and career, more material benefits, more money, CA support, job security and LESS RISK with UAI

based on this brainstorm alone, it seems to me that u favour the cadetship and deem it more valuable. u were much more definitive with ur cadetship brainstorm and didnt list as many negatives comparatively wen u did ur co-op brainstorm

hope it helped
good luck

 

[turtleface]

Who is the twat who came up with this stupid thread?

"Ultimate Decision of my Life" ?????? huh??

I thought you were going to have a sex change or something......

co-op or cadetship - f**k its the same crap - like chosing between one apple and another.

shit just take one and go for it.

*rolls eyes*

LOL :rofl:
in fairness I guess it is a fairly important decision, at his early stage of career development, maybe not as much as having a sex change though.

to be honest i dislike the Bacc with a passion and once you graduate and obtain your CA, that basis of knowledge is uniform with every graduate except for the work experience offered by cadetships.

Its not what you know after the CA to get somewhere but who you know and a cadetship will go a long way in building a strong network of contacts

But thats why the BAcc is good, you're with a small cohort of students that you can get to know really well through classes and their extra curricular activities togethor. Thats 30 or so CFOs/Controllers/Partners/Directors/Managers etc. that you will know in the future.

 

[Meads]

I don't think so.

You need 36 weeks worth of work experience before starting a module. It would generally take 6 years in either case.
Cadetship.
2 yrs full time work
2 yrs full time uni
2 yrs CA + full time work
= 6 yrs

Non-Cadets.
3 yrs full time uni
1 yr full time work
2 yrs CA + full time work
= 6 yrs

I'm not sure of the details for the co-ops, but it should clear up when the CA is done. You basically end up in the same place...Perhaps you had more work experience as a cadet, but then you wouldn't have enjoyed the years when you are in your sexual prime.

Everyone at EY has been telling me that CA only takes 18 months. And further to that, in the tax practice it now only takes them 12 months because they get an exception from the tax module in CA, because of the tax excellence program we run. So in theory you could have a degree and CA under your belt by the time your 23, and you have 3+ years of work experience. That sounds very hard to beat.

But in the end it is going to come down to what you want. The way I see it a cadetship will be more demanding, but you will receive better rewards.

Dont worry about a social life, being a cadet I have the time of my life. Rarely do I pay for my own drink. lol.

At the end of either you are going to have something nice for the resume, and at the end of each you have a pretty good chance of working anywhere.