Doing the sums - does a private education add up? (2 Viewers)

[LoveHateSchool]

^^Thanks for the neg rep Sylvester, would you ever care to enlighten a mindless public school girl like myself why it's worth $30000 to keep your own kids away from the horrible likes of me? With your infinitely superior education, I'm ever so sure you could.

 

[Ivorytw]

^^Thanks for the neg rep Sylvester, would you ever care to enlighten a mindless public school girl like myself why it's worth $30000 to keep your own kids away from the horrible likes of me? With your infinitely superior education, I'm ever so sure you could.

You're probably very lucky if you're going to a good public school. A lot of the public schools in the city are really good. However a lot of you seem to forget that there is a schooling system outside of the city.

And for those kids going to public schools in the country etc or even just city outskirts the education system is pretty bleak.

 

[SylviaB]

rep is life

better check it every five minutes

 

[LoveHateSchool]

^^I actually attend a public comprehensive outside of Sydney. So I've grown up in a rural/regional atmosphere so I know it first hand. So I have not forgotten it. But I do agree that education is overally Sydney centric. There should be more programs and resources that extend outside Sydney. Like they should have study days outside of Sydney, it's not fair the country kids always have to fork money to travel. And I hear there are some very sub par public schools in the city outskirts. I think where I live the public school is truly comprehensive and aligned with the local community. I think the state government thinks the state border is 250 km north of where it actually is sometimes.

^And if you want to present any arguments, this is an open message board you know.

 

[mirakon]

Eeesh, was that article meant to be a balanced view or some sensationalist piece for the lifestyle pages? Did a public school even get a word in?

No, I don't think private education would ever be worth 25000-30000 a year. That is ludicrous and you could get better mileage for your money through travel and other extracurriculars. Which would also give your kid a wider circle of friendships etc. But a cheaper independent where the local public school is not so good for your child's individual needs, reluctant to say it, but perhaps.

Some of the statements were absolutely absurd. Firstly, at public schools, private or comprehensive there is a wide range of extracurriculars. Many teachers give up their time to organise these. These aren't something that are exclusive to private schools. Maybe it's only at private schools they have ridiculous extra costs attached to the school fees for revenue.

The ethnic ghettos comment was like whoaaa. To me, people are people. When I send my kids to a school, the ethnicity make up does not matter to me. And also the socio economic make up. To me, a public comprehensive is the most real life depiction of the world, with a mixture of ethnicities and a full range of socio economic incomes(Also gender when it's comprehensive). I find it hard to believe one may not be a little sheltered and disconnected if they spent their entire education in a K-12 private boys school where the only income spread was whether you had one Audi or two.

The quality of teachers comment is interesting. I think there is a mixture of teachers at all schools. Some teacher are just amazing full stop. Some try hard are okay. And then there's that minority, that kinda just teach cause it's a chore to get money. But the thing is, if your child seeks extra work and help, most will pick up their game to provide that extra support. And if not them, another teacher in the faculty will make the other step up their game or help themselves. I feel I've had some of the most amazing teachers because they were so passionate in their belief in public education that they were not swayed by private incentive.I found the quote from the article laughable about the mother hovering the schoolgates to talk to the teachers/ Helicopter parent much? Why would you need to ongoing speak with your kid's teacher? It's their education not yours.

With those test results from the OECD, I know it's meant to be random. But I know most private schools will coach the group to take it, probably not even random selecting them. Point is, many spoon feed their kids for NAPLAN and other testing. At public schools, they just let the kids take it cause the natural results are indicative of what areas the school should focus on.

The facilities, yep private schools will have pristine lawns and $8 million netball and basketball courts. But does that help the students? Is it not just an exorbitant waste of money when there are public courts 10 minutes down the road. Facilities are important, but giving someone $1000 runners does not make them Usian Bolt.
And the bullying not happening in private schools? Lawl bullying happens everywhere, most people experience bullying in their lives.

I think the problem was these comparisons is that we can never have a comprehensive index of how well rounded an individuals education is. ANd what's more important, the "value" that a school has added to a student. In my mind, not everyone is destined for a 90+ ATAR, not everyone can be on top. It's about achieving the best for each student's individual capacity. The teacher that coaches a very intelligent and driven student to a 99 ATAR will receive praise and kudos, but what about the teacher that gets a kid from a shaky home background with learning difficulties to get a band 4 they never thought possible? We can't conclusively measure this, all statistics are limited. And we can't measure success of every school's alumni or the value of the environment or extra curriculars definitely. This is why performance introduced pay makes me worried, many public young teachers worry about this shift and may be fiscally forced to teach at privates. And John Howard's reforms made me so angry with the private school funding.

A child will do well at any school if they have thirst for knowledge and takes opportunities. This kids will most likely do better in the real world by anyone that was coached and prodded by their parents all the way (which occurs in all the the three strands of school discussed, but mainly private and selectives).

So my perspective? I am a 100% for public education, it aligns with my ideological beliefs. I don't believe in the enterprise of public education and don't believe in the mixing of religion and education. So that rules out private and religious schools. At my regional public comprehensive, I've had so much opportunity afforded unto me that is absolutely insane. I've immensely enjoyed my time at school for the most part. I am lucky because I know not all public schools have the same facilities and opportunity, as the focus is Sydney centric. But I could rattle off a list of so many extracurriculars I have done with my school, trips and excursions. From being on TV to charity to academic comps, I've really experience it all. I could rattle off a list of twenty dedicated teachers. Sure, we don't have the newest facilities or top the HSC rankings, but the opportunity for student to achieve THEIR best is there. Whether it's a band 4 or a band 6. And on top of going to a public school, my parents have had the extra money for me to particpate in even more out of school curriculars, meeting many more people and networking.

I will definitely send my children to public school. I don't believe in the privatisation of education, it should be free for all because it is a priceless asset. Public schools are more encompassing of their respective communities, and they are what I vehemently believe in. I had the choice at the end of Yr6 where to go, and have not regretted it for a single second.

1. Whilst its true that some public schools provide a wider range of extracurricular activities , I can guarantee you that in general private schools provide a lot more.
2. In terms of the ethnic ghettoes point, this only really applies to top end selective school, so yeah I agree with hou that it is irrelevant in the wider scope of things.
3. Its a massive generalisatiom to assume all private school students come from uber rich families. Most families with 2 incomes and a fair few single income families can afford a decemt private school education. Couple in students with scholarships and you'll see the socioeconomic spread isnt as narrow as u claim.
4. Private school students spoon fed? Sorry but complete BS. I can assure you that most provate schools dont have such a narorow focus and probably provide a wider degree of education than the average public school.
5. True, the public school system has its fair share of good teachers but look ay it this way: private schools offer better pay and therefore are more likely to get a greater calibre teacher.
6. Your reasoning that kid can do well regardless of what school if they have the ability, is ironically why I chose to go into the private system and reject my offer from james ruse. Better facilities and better teachers.
7. I agree everyone has a right to education, but if people can afford to get a better equipped (so to speak) education from somewhere else, I dont see why we should stop them from using it. Afyer all, they earned the money to give their children this privilege.

Excuse my horrid spelling btw, the phone is a bitch to type on

 

[LightXT]

6. Your reasoning that kid can do well regardless of what school if they have the ability, is ironically why I chose to go into the private system and reject my offer from james ruse. Better facilities and better teachers.

Am I the only one who finds this post somewhat contradictory?

 

[mirakon]

Am I the only one who finds this post somewhat contradictory?

I guess it wasnt that well phrased so let me try again.

If a student of ability can do well regardless of school, the best thing to do imo is take them to a school with better facilities and teachers.

One such analogy is this: suppose yoy get someone who is great at racing f1. He will do well regardless of what car he is in, coming in the top 10 consistently. Give him a top tier car though with the latest tech and he will most likely do better.

What i'm saying is that private schools dont make a talented student, no school does.,but they are able to facilitate these talents effectively with their greater number of opportunities

 

[LightXT]

http://www.theage.com.au/national/education/ties-that-bind-prove-a-private-education-has-its-awards-20101203-18jx0.html?from=age_sb

"An analysis of the 435 people who have received the nation's top Order of Australia honours since they were first awarded in 1975, shows they disproportionately attended a handful of elite Victorian secondary schools"

"The analysis provides a fascinating insight into the transfer of social advantage through the school system, with independent schools dominating rankings in Victoria."

"The only government school in Victoria to be ranked in the top 30 was the selective-entry Melbourne High School...outside of Victoria the dominant schools were not always private, with former students from the selective state schools Sydney Boys' High and Fort Street High receiving the third and equal fourth highest number of awards."

 

[LoveHateSchool]

^
1) Ok due to the money, they may (for a random example) have stables on grounds and horse riding on grounds but the money for example to take house riding outside of school would probably go further, plus getting your kid out of school friends. Also many privates surcharge for these more expensive extra curriculars. Like those schools with winter campus, you normally have to pay like a $2000 surcharge on top of already existing fees. I am a ballet dancer and used to train 20 hours a week after school and that extra curricular cost was a fraction of private school fees, plus arguably better training than if I was part of a private school ballet program.
3) There tends to be a wider range at low fee independents, particularly Catholic schools. But there typically is not much lower income representation. I was more referring to your $25000-$30000 bracket schools. And yes there are scholarship students but they are a minority of any private school populace, and imported to get good results/publicity from sport etc. for the school. If people are sending multiple kids to these high fee schools they'd have to be pretty wealthy. Even at a low fee though, I think there'd be a slight skewing of the school make up.
4) I didn't say it was narrow. But I'll stand by that private school students in my experience are more heavily spoon fed for the NAPLAN and OECD etc. tests. Their syllabus focus tends to be heavily geared towards those tests, and they tend to practice intensively for them beforehand. Granted, the HSC is probably something harder/can't totally spoonfeed, but we have known of private schools in the past to teach only select poems and help the class write the essays just for them, analyse the related texts in class as a group etc. so less independent learning. Anecdotal I know, but people I know who achieved high marks at comprehensive public school tend to find maintaining them at uni easier, selective kids sometimes struggles if they are the ones that have been tutored all their lives but private schools kids I have known have found it harder to maintain (though could be the freedom they find when they move away from overbearing parents ). Depends on the private schools though, I shouldn't have generealized and said all do, in my experience some do.
5) Simple economics would dictate but not all teachers are dictated by that.
6) Contradiction? As selectives perform better
7) I think with restructuring of the education system would provide better outcomes. Like if less funding was given to privates, then it could improve under performing public schools. Ideally, state education could cater for the needs of all, imagine how much more effective the system would be if money was better distributed and used.

 

[theycallmebob]

Australian Chinese hold Australian values. They put Australia first before China.

but they were once "international chinese" right? or their parents were. are you going to give them a chance to develop australian values?

 

[talisman]

i think it comes down to the student always. as a scholar at a private school, it's a very different experience to someone who goes to a private school but pays. in many ways, i am more determined to take as many opportunities possible from my school and i feel that my private school does offer more opportunities and a well-rounded education.

it is fair to say that public and selective schools also provide a well-rounded education and opportunities, but private schools do provide more.

i do however stand in a very different position because i had to earn my way to where i am.

i can't remember who it was but someone mentioned something about not going to selective because of the asian majority?

i have to say, that was something that did factor into my choosing a private school. i used to go to public for K to 6 and the cultural diversity wasn't great even though it was actually pretty good for a public school. i went to my private school, where there is a lot more cultural diversity.

i think another issue that has been brought up is an education being reflective of society. obviously, no private school will truly be able to attain this. obviously there will be upper-middle class people there but the fact of the matter is, private school students act just as public school students do and that is the most accurate characteristic for us to draw upon.

private schools do make up for this by involving us greatly in the community. "but so does every school" i hear some people say. private schools do so more. it's difficult to gauge how greatly they do. we're obviously looking at things like charitywork, community involvement etc. i am certain that if i had not chosen the school i go to, i'd be a completely different person, and i would not have been the better for it. i have learnt more about learning to love, about being yourself and about interacting with everyone. i feel the community is much tighter in private schools.

feel free to dispute me. as i mentioned before, i am in a very different position to most private school students

 

[zombies]

i think it comes down to the student always. as a scholar at a private school, it's a very different experience to someone who goes to a private school but pays. in many ways, i am more determined to take as many opportunities possible from my school and i feel that my private school does offer more opportunities and a well-rounded education.

it is fair to say that public and selective schools also provide a well-rounded education and opportunities, but private schools do provide more.

i do however stand in a very different position because i had to earn my way to where i am.

i can't remember who it was but someone mentioned something about not going to selective because of the asian majority?

i have to say, that was something that did factor into my choosing a private school. i used to go to public for K to 6 and the cultural diversity wasn't great even though it was actually pretty good for a public school. i went to my private school, where there is a lot more cultural diversity.

i think another issue that has been brought up is an education being reflective of society. obviously, no private school will truly be able to attain this. obviously there will be upper-middle class people there but the fact of the matter is, private school students act just as public school students do and that is the most accurate characteristic for us to draw upon.

private schools do make up for this by involving us greatly in the community. "but so does every school" i hear some people say. private schools do so more. it's difficult to gauge how greatly they do. we're obviously looking at things like charitywork, community involvement etc. i am certain that if i had not chosen the school i go to, i'd be a completely different person, and i would not have been the better for it. i have learnt more about learning to love, about being yourself and about interacting with everyone. i feel the community is much tighter in private schools.

feel free to dispute me. as i mentioned before, i am in a very different position to most private school students

Wouldn't private schools have less cultural diversity cos they're all white kids?

 

[mirakon]

^
1) Ok due to the money, they may (for a random example) have stables on grounds and horse riding on grounds but the money for example to take house riding outside of school would probably go further, plus getting your kid out of school friends. Also many privates surcharge for these more expensive extra curriculars. Like those schools with winter campus, you normally have to pay like a $2000 surcharge on top of already existing fees. I am a ballet dancer and used to train 20 hours a week after school and that extra curricular cost was a fraction of private school fees, plus arguably better training than if I was part of a private school ballet program.
3) There tends to be a wider range at low fee independents, particularly Catholic schools. But there typically is not much lower income representation. I was more referring to your $25000-$30000 bracket schools. And yes there are scholarship students but they are a minority of any private school populace, and imported to get good results/publicity from sport etc. for the school. If people are sending multiple kids to these high fee schools they'd have to be pretty wealthy. Even at a low fee though, I think there'd be a slight skewing of the school make up.
4) I didn't say it was narrow. But I'll stand by that private school students in my experience are more heavily spoon fed for the NAPLAN and OECD etc. tests. Their syllabus focus tends to be heavily geared towards those tests, and they tend to practice intensively for them beforehand. Granted, the HSC is probably something harder/can't totally spoonfeed, but we have known of private schools in the past to teach only select poems and help the class write the essays just for them, analyse the related texts in class as a group etc. so less independent learning. Anecdotal I know, but people I know who achieved high marks at comprehensive public school tend to find maintaining them at uni easier, selective kids sometimes struggles if they are the ones that have been tutored all their lives but private schools kids I have known have found it harder to maintain (though could be the freedom they find when they move away from overbearing parents ). Depends on the private schools though, I shouldn't have generealized and said all do, in my experience some do.
5) Simple economics would dictate but not all teachers are dictated by that.
6) Contradiction? As selectives perform better
7) I think with restructuring of the education system would provide better outcomes. Like if less funding was given to privates, then it could improve under performing public schools. Ideally, state education could cater for the needs of all, imagine how much more effective the system would be if money was better distributed and used.

1. The point is not about which provides the "better" extracurricular opportunities, this depends on specific programmes etc, the point is private schools often have a more extensive range. Alsoagain talking about thw costs of a horse riding cocurricular and saying its expensive is a moot ppint, wjat the poijt is is that people who can afford it have thw opportunity to participate in it, which is a bonus.
2. Again im talking from the pov who went to a 20k fee school, the vast majority of peoplea rent masssivley rich, they're well off because they got two stable incomes. I also dont see how being a school of middle-high socioeconomic status is a negative. By the same logic you can take public schools having lower socioeconokic students as a negative. This borderline class warfare is ridiculous.
3. Again, in my experience private schools in fact require more independent learning, as the teachers arent lazy and dont resort to as much spoonfeeding. The point is, you're basing this generalisation on a few anecdotes and I can testify this is by no means the usual case.
4. Of course not all teachers are like this, but as the basic point stands private school teachers tend to be a higher calibre than public school teachers.
5. I already explained why its not a contradiction to sir r sole. Also selective schools perform better due to a higher intake of high calibre students, not because the avtual school is beyyet. Take a high calibre student from the private system and they'd be equal to if not better than a top tier selective studemt.
6. More the governments fault than that of private schools. Also this is not at all a reason why private schools are worse

 

[talisman]

Wouldn't private schools have less cultural diversity cos they're all white kids?

nope. there are a lot a upper-middle class non-white families out there!

 

[Drongoski]

linny808

Are you on a scholarship?

Private schools offer a wealth of facilities/programmes way beyond the public school without doubt. But only those who can afford it have the option.

 

[talisman]

linny808

Are you on a scholarship?

Private schools offer a wealth of facilities/programmes way beyond the public school without doubt. But only those who can afford it have the option.

sure. i get that only people who can afford it can have access to it. there are other options albeit limited, such as scholarships which are limited but can extend to music, the arts, sport.

i personally would not send my kids to a private school if i had to pay for them unless they earnt themselves a scholarship. at the same time, i would only send them to a public school i have absolute confidence in, which i feel i would not. so the final option would be a selective school.

my ethos on education is that it isn't all about academica, it should be about achieving a well-rounded and enjoyable education, to learn about other people and yourself at the same time. if my kids ended up in a selective school, it would be my role as a parent (based on my ethos) to encourage them to take up co-corricular (esp. non-academic ones) and help them take the best perspective ini all their choices

 

[Annihilist]

sure. i get that only people who can afford it can have access to it. there are other options albeit limited, such as scholarships which are limited but can extend to music, the arts, sport.

i personally would not send my kids to a private school if i had to pay for them unless they earnt themselves a scholarship. at the same time, i would only send them to a public school i have absolute confidence in, which i feel i would not. so the final option would be a selective school.

my ethos on education is that it isn't all about academica, it should be about achieving a well-rounded and enjoyable education, to learn about other people and yourself at the same time. if my kids ended up in a selective school, it would be my role as a parent (based on my ethos) to encourage them to take up co-corricular (esp. non-academic ones) and help them take the best perspective ini all their choices

Well said.

 

[Lolsmith]

Education is a product like anything else

sending your kids to a public school is just careless

old school tie = worth it for connections and networking

the class system works, stop trying to subvert it

what did your school end up costing you(r parents) per year anyway

 

[Pfortune35]

Many christian schools are hardly distinguishable from radical islamic schools in that regard. Mixing religion with education is dangerous. Religion is a personal thing, and many religious schools preach to kids with their own personal messages. Such as the concept of hell and sin and salvation etc. Kids are malleable and should not be taught, in an academic setting, that they will burn in hell if they think about sex before they are married, for example. Because they will believe it and it is damaging to their upbringing.

Before Lolsmith jumps in, teaching kids about this sort of religious evangelicalism is more fascist than anything I value.

If you would say this you probably dont know many people who go to religious (particularly christian) school.

I know from my own experience and the knowledge of other schools that chrsitian schools dont practice 'indoctriantion' but just
ramble on the same religous bullshit year after year and everybody ignores it.

SOme people take to the religious shit, but religious people are part of life, you probably have friends who are christian or islamic or jewish.
I do.

And as for 'sex before marriage shit' I can i with 100% certainty than not one boy in my year would turn down down sex because of 'god'

 

[theycallmebob]

nothing wrong with islamic schools