9 australians in bali drug bust.. (3 Viewers)

[lourai*87]

umm... YES! Because, even if i don't CONDONE it, I accept that cultures are different. Sure it's probably right to say "we'd rather u didn't kill them for x, y, and z reasons" but it's also wrong, to say that they're wrong.
Laws are USUALLY merely a reflection of cultural beliefs/customs, do you believe that we are morally superior to them or something? Can you imagine it reversed.. and the indonesians complaining when we caught one of their drug dealers that he WASN'T put to death?

I admire your acceptance of different cultural beliefs, i really do. I am usually like that myself but in this case...we are talking about a person's life.

Im not trying to challenge you at all, but can i ask what do you feel it achieves? That's why i have an issue with it, because it seems to me to be completely unjust and senseless. And i dont understand how they feel it is just.

 

[richz]

lol, another bunch of dumb shits smuggling drugs.. I know drug dealing is easy money but its kinda stupid to smuggle drugs into another country. Just sell ur drugs within ur country!!!

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I admire your acceptance of different cultural beliefs, i really do. I am usually like that myself but in this case...we are talking about a person's life.

Im not trying to challenge you at all, but can i ask what do you feel it achieves? That's why i have an issue with it, because it seems to me to be completely unjust and senseless. And i dont understand how they feel it is just.

Yes, and it's fair that u don't feel it's just, most of our society doesn't... And sure, try to 'educate' the indonesians, turn them towards our way of thinking..

But there is no such thing as objective morality.

 

[tattoodguy]

all the crap about drug dealers causing alll these problems to pooor drug addicts etc ----- thats a shit arguement......... its the same as blaming macdonalds if you get fat cos u eat big macs all day...

Its unreasonable and its a stupid moron arguement..

drug dealing is punished harshly --- becasue our government and police are tooo lazy to chase drug addicts.... and thats the bottom line. The harsh penalties for drug dealers are immoral.

Our government is a drug dealer ---- its just a fact.

why arnt alcohol/gambling/smoking etc also illegal? someone answer that? our government profits off these activities ---- its stupid... there not much different to illlegal drugs. except that the government just decided to say there legal so it could make money.

like mariguana has medical purposes ---------- so why is that illegal?


and in regard to the bali 9 not all of those alledgedly involved had drugs on them -------- for example the asian bloke ------------ the words of cowards and traitors should have no bearing in a court of law................. cowards lie --------- just because they are tooo scared to be shot they dob someone in...............

cant you seee the risk that innocent people can be wrongfully convicted????? Unless they have some tapes etc ---on the face of it, there is more evidence against chappele corby than some of the bali 9.

im sure heaps of people are convicted who are innocent even in australia - when we have a system that allows guilty parties to get offf and get a lighter sentence on the condition of implicating more people --------------- it encourages them to dob in even innocent parties.

Ur argument that its the law and therefore we should just accept it and follow it.
What you people fail to grasp is the idea that laws can be wrong........laws are unjust -

how is it...that governments can start wars killing 1000's of innocent people based on lies ---------------and recieve no punishment ............ yet over minute crimes people can face execution????

why arnt the actions of police and politicians punished? say politicians lie -- why is there any question --- if they will resign or not?????????????/
they should be fired.........and then thrown in prison.

the government makes laws - in a way that protects them and the police. lying to the austraian public etc should be a serious fucking crime.

our government allowing australian citizens to be tortured in other countreis or inrpisoned for long periods with no trial should also be a crime.

We are alll meant to be protected ---------- when the police/government allow people to be killed etc -- that should be a crime. not just by individuals...but the government should be punished.

judges should be punished for bad decisions. Inprisoning innnocent people should also be a crime.

when the government allows torture/bashings in our jails --- that should be a crime.

politicians should be accountable and not just fired.........but imprisoned.

I think anarchy is a better system than having an opppressive government who operates above the law with immunity. The government should lead by example - rather than have harsh penalties only for the citizens.

alot of the actions of our government are alot more serious and harmful to our socity than the actions of most criminals.

until the government makes laws that are reasonble and fair ----- the laws should only act as a basic guide line -------------- i think its perfectly acceptable to break alot of laws in this country.

If someone does a drive by shooting....and ur in the car ------- even though u didnt do anything -- u will be charged with murder?

thats rediculous.

our government has no concept of responsibility........

our system unfairly blames and punshes innnocent parties, and lacks mechanisms to punish the government.

I cant seee how any one can say "thats the law and it has to be followed."
justice and fairness is more important than the law.

 

[tattoodguy]

I dont htink any government should kill anyone ----------- accept i guess in war.

but i think ..citizens should be allowed to kill other citizens. under certain circumstances........and in many others they should get a slap on the wrist...

but our government should never.......no government should ever execute anyone.

 

[richz]

lol, i must agree drug dealers must be punished harshly, but think abt how much money u could make ifu got ur hands on them drug dealing would be good to do in this country but not any of those asian countries.

 

[walrusbear]

umm... YES! Because, even if i don't CONDONE it, I accept that cultures are different. Sure it's probably right to say "we'd rather u didn't kill them for x, y, and z reasons" but it's also wrong, to say that they're wrong.
Laws are USUALLY merely a reflection of cultural beliefs/customs, do you believe that we are morally superior to them or something? Can you imagine it reversed.. and the indonesians complaining when we caught one of their drug dealers that he WASN'T put to death?

i understand your claim, and i'm not trying to be a paternalistic prick here, but i think this is taking cultural relativity to its extremes.
they're going to be killed.
whilst i can perceive that Indonesian culture differs from our own (by the way, are we assuming a stupid thing here? it's really only the government, is indo 'culture' really centred around killing people needlessly?) it's a bit much to ask to respect it when it intrudes on our own culture so badly.
if you take that line of thinking to its logical conclusion we could perhaps claim our cultural heritage includes the random bombing of indo villages. does cultural sensitivity need to extend to taking it in the arse?? (metaphorically speaking of course )

 

[mahuligan]

all the crap about drug dealers causing alll these problems to pooor drug addicts etc ----- thats a shit arguement......... its the same as blaming macdonalds if you get fat cos u eat big macs all day...

if there were no people to deal the drugs then there would be very limited accessiblitly to them. as much as you may like to believe drug dealers are not responsible for 'poor drug addicts' these people would not be able to get addicted in the first place if it was incredibly hard for them to acquire the drugs!

why arnt alcohol/gambling/smoking etc also illegal? someone answer that? our government profits off these activities ---- its stupid... there not much different to illlegal drugs. except that the government just decided to say there legal so it could make money.

the government has implemented many anti alchohol and smoking campaigns..notice the lil anti smoking slogans on every ciggerate packet?!

like mariguana has medical purposes ---------- so why is that illegal?

can you imagine what would happen if it were legalised? it would be even more easier to overuse and abuse the drug, and it could easily end up in the hands of people not able to deal with the addictive nature of the drug.

how is it...that governments can start wars killing 1000's of innocent people based on lies ---------------and recieve no punishment ............ yet over minute crimes people can face execution????

why arnt the actions of police and politicians punished? say politicians lie -- why is there any question --- if they will resign or not?????????????/
they should be fired.........and then thrown in prison.

the government makes laws - in a way that protects them and the police. lying to the austraian public etc should be a serious fucking crime.

in australia there is something called the separation of powers where the judiciary is independent from the government. this means that whenever a person is convicted, regardless of their age, sex, job or context, we are ensured that any decisions from the courts are independent, unbiased and free from any outside influence. the governent is NOT above the law.
the 'rule of law' and the concept of natural justice, two things that are deeply imgrained within the australian legal system, are also other forces ensuring that there is equality between the individuals and the government. they basically ensure that the government is subject to the laws it makes.

If someone does a drive by shooting....and ur in the car ------- even though u didnt do anything -- u will be charged with murder?

thats rediculous.

haha im incredibly sure that will not happen unless the person was in on the whole murder..like if they helped plan it or something. there has to be an intent to kill and they have to commit an act that leads to the death for someone to be actually convicted of murder!


by the way..im sorry im picking on you

 

[Wesnat]

Some of you are just ignorant idiots and dickheads.

I 100% agree with people who say: who are we to question Indonesian law? It's different, alright? Are these people saying that their values are more superior than Indonesians'? It's simply DIFFERENT! You live in a DIFFERENT society, and we must respect their law. To you, death penalty is needless, to them, it is needed! Look, Indonesia needs strict laws okay? Their crime rates are far higher than ours! It's already a troubled and corrupt nation; people can bribe the police force easy! Why? Simply, the policemen/women aren't paid enough. Why? The country is poor! So, if the law is relaxed like it is in Australia, the country will be notorious to centres of criminal activities. We're privileged to live in Australia. With countries like Indonesia, not so. They need their laws. If you're doing Law or Economics, you should know these things.

And yes, these people who say they don't know about the death penalty are simply bullshitting. Not only the fact that Corby's case was so big in Australia, but in Denpasar Airports and even in local buses there are already many relevant warning signs! I've been there, so I know.

And then there are these people saying, 'ooooh... Australians should get a special treatment, we've already helped them through difficulties, blah blah blah' are you FUCKING SERIOUS? Listen, fuckwits. So, some Indonesians decide to commit the exact same crime. They get the death penalty, while some Australians (who may not even donate to the tsunami victims) escape the punishment, simply because they're Australians. Where's the justice in that? Moreover, HOW WOULD THAT BE VIEWED IN INDONESIA? It's favouritism, and it doesn't work with justice! So, you've helped your teacher clean up her desk, but then you disturb the class. You still get detention, if not, HOW WOULD THAT BE VIEWED BY OTHER STUDENTS?

So, before people prejudge or become ignorant dickheads, think about the other side of things - the bigger scheme of things!

Btw, I don't agree with the death penalty, if you intend to discredit me in that way.

 

[ogmzergrush]

Excellent use of persuasive terms, especially "fuck", "fuckwits", etc. 10 points.

 

[Wesnat]

I take that as a complement, so thank you. I just can't stand idiots.

 

[lourai*87]

Wesnat -- i kinda agree with how you are thinking. I know we cant change anything so it seems like a waste of time complaining. But its something that actually really bothers me, i dont know why, it just affects me somehow.

And maybe they feel their law is necessery, but how! I cant see how they can justify it. Thats all...i would really like to hear them justify it.

 

[ogmzergrush]

Wesnat -- i kinda agree with how you are thinking. I know we cant change anything so it seems like a waste of time complaining. But its something that actually really bothers me, i dont know why, it just affects me somehow.

And maybe they feel their law is necessery, but how! I cant see how they can justify it. Thats all...i would really like to hear them justify it.

So far all I've heard by way of justification is that it sets a strong example to others who would seek to endanger the live's of Indonesian youths, and ruin their country, etc. Sounds rather weak to me though, seeing as I'm fundamentally against the death penalty also, but that's what the claim seems to be.

(And of course, for those of you seeking to argue further, I'm sure it's a perfectly valid justification for people who happen to believe that killing someone is an appropriate measure of justice).

 

[Wesnat]

Lourai and Ogmzergrush, I don't know their justifications either. But I speculated in my first paragraph of my previous post that, in the bigger scheme of things, that would be one reason.

I know that we, who have been influenced by a different culture, condemn the death penalty. But my point is that we must respect their law, no matter how wrong it seems. Keep in mind as well that Singapore is a very 'civilised' country (I really don't want people to take it the wrong way; 'civilised' is such a barbaric term to use - pun intended - !), yet you get jailed for dropping your chewing gum on the street. So it's not so much 'I'm better than you are', but 'I'm different than you are'.

 

[ogmzergrush]

That's a reasonable approach to take, but I find it difficult to conjure up enough faith in any legal system, our own, the Indonesian one, indeed any in the world, to make a decision as serious as determining whether or not to end someone's life.

 

[lourai*87]

So far all I've heard by way of justification is that it sets a strong example to others who would seek to endanger the live's of Indonesian youths, and ruin their country, etc. Sounds rather weak to me though, seeing as I'm fundamentally against the death penalty also, but that's what the claim seems to be.

(And of course, for those of you seeking to argue further, I'm sure it's a perfectly valid justification for people who happen to believe that killing someone is an appropriate measure of justice).

But what i dont get is..they grow the stuff over there!! The indonesians are prob more involved in drugs than us...so try looking in their own counry first perhaps?!

 

[ogmzergrush]

But what i dont get is..they grow the stuff over there!! The indonesians are prob more involved in drugs than us...so try looking in their own counry first perhaps?!

Well sure that's how it looks from here, I don't know enough about the situation to really pass judgement on that. One thing I'd make note of though is that a lot of countries often find it much easier to see external problems, rather than those which are internal.

I can accept that drugs are a major problem there, but I have no idea who is to blame for it. I'm sure it's a combination of both internal and external forces, as to which is responsible for the majority of the problem I can't say. Either way though this makes little difference to me, as ending the lives of these individuals will do little towards resolving such a well-established problem, but on the other hand will have significant impacts upon the (innocent) people who knew and loved them.

Seeing as it's virtually impossible to eliminate supply, efforts to do so tend to improve the appeal of supplying, as it's seem as more profitable and as such as a risk that is more worth taking. For this reason, (At least in theory), efforts to combat drug use at a supply level are less than ideal. Sure, putting someone to death is going to stop them attempting it again, but it's also going to make people think "Hey, if I can get away with this, I'd be set!".

A far more effective solution, at least from what I've learnt and seen, would be improving education in relation to drug use, and by doing so reducing the demand. This in turn has the effect of making supply much less profitable and less worthwhile, and thus has the desired impact.

Yes, of course, I know this is fairly theoretical, but I've come across quite a few people, many of whom I consider to be in a much better position than myself to make such observations, who see this is as a far more viable approach.

Then again, of course, I'm speaking from my own perspective, which tends towards solutions other than the death penalty.

 

[Wesnat]

Lourai, I think they are trying hard to find the drugs there. But first, didn't these Australians transport the drugs from somewhere else, not from Bali?

Second, you know how eaaaassy it is to bribe the police there? So easy, they'll be happy with $10 if you disobeyed a traffic rule. I heard this from an Indo friend of mine. Crazy huh? Even the so-called 'godfather' was trying to bribe the police, right? He wouldn't do it here, would he? You can see from here, the good policemen/women will find it extremely, extremely difficult to find something there.

Third, the police there got a tip off from the AFP right? Relate this to the previous paragraph, imagine how grateful the good cops will be; getting such easy catch. It's only right on their part to arrest the 9.

Btw, have any of you heard that news that these drug crimelords are targetting much younger people (below their 20s!!!!!) to carry out their dirty work? That's some scary crap, alright....

 

[ogmzergrush]

Lourai, I think they are trying hard to find the drugs there. But first, didn't these Australians transport the drugs from somewhere else, not from Bali?

Second, you know how eaaaassy it is to bribe the police there? So easy, they'll be happy with $10 if you disobeyed a traffic rule. I heard this from an Indo friend of mine. Crazy huh? Even the so-called 'godfather' was trying to bribe the police, right? He wouldn't do it here, would he? You can see from here, the good policemen/women will find it extremely, extremely difficult to find something there.

I'm trying very hard to be accepting of the integrity of the legal system in Indonesia, but your observations on corruption, as well as those everywhere else, seem to be intent on making this very difficult. Not meaning to personally attack what you've said, but how can you encourage people to have faith in this system to determine whether or not someone should die, when admitting to the prevalence of such corruption?

 

[tattoodguy]

but as they were taking drugs out of indonesia...that helps the country......so ur arguements about how it will ruin their country is total bull shit.

in corbys case i heard...the officials didnt finger print the drugs etc,,,and didnt do the proper tests..

they have no right to even have a trial there........if they cant investigate things properly...they shouldnt be having trials..........fucking dirty monkeys.

they are threatening to execute the bali 9 ----- that means they can make them say whatever they want...........confessions and implicating other pppple.

overall it means innocent ppple could be found guilty.

ur right about if you dont sell drugs they wont have drugs ----- but drug addicts are adults...its their own choice to ruin their own lives etc........... its fine to say...drug dealers selll drugs............but no one has a right to say drug dealers ruin peoples lives or kill people etc.

macdonalds doesnt make people fat........they sell fatty foood. Its the same shit.

yes the government puts labels on cigareetes etc............but it still sells them..........why cant drug dealers put labels on pillls and other drugs and sell them........everyone knows that recreational drugs are dangerous if you want to take them....it should be up to you.

i still think its hypocrital to alllow some recreational drugs and not others...............at a minimum in light of the hypocrisy....drug crime should be dealt with alot lesss harshly........

as ive said before......its better for some one to selll drugs......than commmit voilent robberies etc...if they are desperate for money.

non voilent crime...should only be punsihed with a slap on the wrist.


in relation to ur ....seperation of powers bull shit ----- blah blah blah..ive heard all that in legal studies...............but ur misssing the point.

government and judiciary write and make the laws -------------- and as a result.................there are no penalties or only very small penalties when people in these offices fuck up.

liek the examles i gave above ------ the titles have speical privlidges and power --- but somehow....they dont have any additional responsibilities when things turn to shit. politicians should be accountable and sent to jail............. for lying, judges should be put in jail for convicting innocent people --- politicians should be put in jail for alllowing assults to occcur in jail...

everything in society should have consequences ----- espeically those who run and mismanage our country to the detriment of all society. Starting a war on bull shit information......and all the other shit that happens ------- these are alot more serious than the crimes most ppple are sent to jail for.

cant u seee a confliect? the government makes all the laws and consequently there are no penalties or crimes...for when they do a shit job.....

same as police etc..............................the government....... and its agencies ---- operate with out reasonable responsibility and basic immunity from penalty.

Why arnt some of the things i listed crimes? ??????????