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9 australians in bali drug bust.. (1 Viewer)

tattoodguy

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yeah if you admit its corrupt etc.............our governmetn shouldnt be helping a court/legal system of a corrupt country --- if its pretty clear they wont receive fair reasonable trials ------------ the afp..should not have tipped them offff.
 

Wesnat

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ogmzergrush said:
I'm trying very hard to be accepting of the integrity of the legal system in Indonesia, but your observations on corruption, as well as those everywhere else, seem to be intent on making this very difficult. Not meaning to personally attack what you've said, but how can you encourage people to have faith in this system to determine whether or not someone should die, when admitting to the prevalence of such corruption?
I never encourage people to have faith in the system! It's unfair, I know. But given the laws, justice can be done. It's just the people running the justice system that can be the problem. Of course, right now, the Indonesian government works very hard on eliminating corruption (Indonesia is Asia's most corrupt nation). You can't blame the country for being corrupt. The people are poor, and aren't paid what they deserve. The Soeharto regime made sure of that.

What about countries like the USA? It has capital punishment, yet not THAT corrupt. For Americans, their laws can bring justice. Again it depends on the people working in the system...
 
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Wesnat said:
What about countries like the USA? It has capital punishment, yet not THAT corrupt. For Americans, their laws can bring justice. Again it depends on the people working in the system...
Ah, that's a far more eloquent phrasing of what I was thinking, yes, it's faith in the people running the law that I lack. :)
 
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tattoodguy said:
do u guys think just because the laws are followed that is justice?
I'd be more inclined to call it "Justice". Depends on the situation, the crime, the individual, and the sentence. It's the law's version of justice, which, depending on the context, will sometimes vary from what I feel is appropriate.
 

Wesnat

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ogmzergrush said:
Ah, that's a far more eloquent phrasing of what I was thinking, yes, it's faith in the people running the law that I lack. :)

Precisely what all Australians and the government fear right now, isn't it? I mean, if the justice system works 100%, and they get the death penalty, it will be very unfortunate of course, but at least we can respect that. But I can't stand people running to conclusions and saying Indonesia's laws should be changed, etc etc. You see, their LAWS, we must respect. The people running the justice system? Well, that's another story...
 
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Wesnat said:
Precisely what all Australians and the government fears right now, isn't it? I mean, if the justice system works 100%, and they get the death penalty, it will be very unfortunate of course, but at least we can respect that. But I can't stand people running to conclusions and saying their laws should be changed, etc etc. You see, their LAWS, we must respect. The people running the justice system? Well, that's another story...
Looks like we agree much more than it initially seemed :)
 

Wesnat

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Tattoodguy, your views I respect, but perhaps they're too idealistic. Laws don't guarantee justice. We know that! Hell, we don't even have to look to Indonesia to see it! Of course, many politicians are war criminals and they get away with it. We all know that! It is unfortunate. But without law, we'll have anarchy!
 

Wesnat

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ogmzergrush said:
Looks like we agree much more than it initially seemed :)

I was misunderstood then. I hope I've made all my points clearer now. Swearing like before was out of character for me :p But when I had a bad day, and am fueled with anger, that's what happens.
 

tattoodguy

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what about the laws and govnerment of iraq?

alot of you support going in their to change their government and laws etc.

you think its justifiable to kill people to redesign a soveriegn nation...............but you are against us talking about indonesias legal system................. or you reject australian citizens right to stage protests and riots to bring change and publicity to laws in our own country?

the indo's they have their own country..and laws ....i agree we should follow them...........but in this case...........when we dont have faith in their legal system ---- the afp should have let them come back to australia...where we can control the outcome more. We had the option of doing that.......and we should of.

they fucking already murdered 88 australians ------ they should spare these 9 aussies........and then they only owe us another 79 ----------- seee that is justice.
 

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Not-That-Bright said:
umm... YES! Because, even if i don't CONDONE it, I accept that cultures are different. Sure it's probably right to say "we'd rather u didn't kill them for x, y, and z reasons" but it's also wrong, to say that they're wrong.
Laws are USUALLY merely a reflection of cultural beliefs/customs, do you believe that we are morally superior to them or something? Can you imagine it reversed.. and the indonesians complaining when we caught one of their drug dealers that he WASN'T put to death?
so we should respect other customs like honour killings and female genital mutiliation because the people who condone them are just culturally different?

it's easy to turn a blind eye to these problems by taking the view that we should accept other cultures that are different to ours, but some basic level of human rights needs to be objectively defined
 

tattoodguy

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yeah its idealistic ------- but we should be aiming high.

its about life and death and inprisonment and ruining peoples lives etc.....

with justice and our legal system...... we shouldnt just compromise all the time to make things easy.

dont u think its weird though how alot of things the government and politicians do ------------------ they arnt responsible for or punished for?

tooo me thats just weird. its a stupid system.

until the government better protects people in jail.......i dont think they have a right to send non voilent offenders to jail.

also i dont think, the government should be allowed to have decisions re-assessed just to get longer sentences for people ----

the government pays the judges etc? and has a say in who is appointed? i think the legal system shoudl always favor the defendent.............and if a sentence is manifestly inadequate.......................stifff shit.

but defendents should be allowed to appeal etc...

the system should favor the defendents and give them some chances - because they dont have any power...compared to the government.
 

Not-That-Bright

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No... but we are still a world of nations, borders... and if it's a separate nation you're dealing with you can teach, but you can't enforce a different culture. (i don't mean changing governments is wrong, i mean trying to enforce your way of living).

While of course if someone has a culture that differs much to our own (in our own country) and he has a concubine or something, that he believes is acceptable, well under our country, under our laws, he should be charged.
 

tattoodguy

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honor killings are ok...

but i mean like 100 years ago or whatever.....they killl ppple for being blacks....
its just proves again..some laws are shit...

and yeah there should be some basic human rights that alll countries are forced to protect.

and protocols for trials etc.
 

Not-That-Bright

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If the culture of the nation in general, feels that it is ok to kill blacks... we should try to educate them, beg them to stop, etc etc...
but we can't enforce our beliefs onto them! sure maybe if it's a rogue government or some group of rebels... but an entire nation state that is simply minding its business? no.
 

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Spellcheck wrote:
so we should respect other customs like honour killings and female genital mutiliation because the people who condone them are just culturally different?

it's easy to turn a blind eye to these problems by taking the view that we should accept other cultures that are different to ours, but some basic level of human rights needs to be objectively defined



Anyone knows what the UN's Declaration of Human Rights say about capital punishment? It's pretty good on moral matters that must be followed by the whole world. It must have considered many things, like values, religions, etc of different countries.

To put a dogma on certain things will be controversial. For example, issues on abortion. Some countries which are religious are against abortion, while others are pro-abortion, or 'pro-choice'. If the Catholic Church makes it a dogma throughout the earth, what would people say? People have different beliefs, different values, etc. They'll say, "who is the church to say this, yadda yadda".

Of course, some things are 'dogma'. But even these things start to change. Think Terry Schiavo's case - that's killing right? But is the killing justified? Well, it's up to you.

Would the killing of these 9 be justified, if it happens? To many of you, no, to many others, yes! It's subjective. We, who have very limited knowledge and experience, don't have the right to create a dogmatic law. I'm not saying that we should leave them as they are, but through diplomatic ways, like Not-to-Bright mentioned, such as teaching them, and not enforcing them to these countries, we can gradually make the world better. If you enforce your values on them, what would the people there think? They'd be insulted, obviously.
 
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tattoodguy

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most of the hard liners on here.......who say they desrve to die etc....

if police kill someone in custody do you think its ok to kill the police offficer?

if ur the victim of a crime do you think that should give you immunity to commmit a lesss serious crime?

if you want to be hard liners and punish people at alll costs with no mercy - that needs to be done across the board even towards police and politicians.

and when u want to talk about justice that should work both ways ---- not just about being punished............but when ur victimised you should have the right to bring things back to equilibrium by committing a crime with immunity.

the government takes away all ur means of self defence so when ur the victim of a voilent crime ---- its the direct result of the governments mismanagement and them not living up to their major responsibility to you as a citizen ie protection.

YOu then deserve to be given a break when u recipricate and fail to abide by all the laws of this country.

Who agreees with me?
 

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tattooguy..i think what alot of people are getting at is that although the death penatly may seem harsh and unfair to us, its the law of indonesia and by saying that australians shouldnt be subject to it is undermining the whole concept of equality! you were saying how there isnt any equality between the gov't and the individuals, but by saying that the australians shouldnt be punished the same way an indonesian would be is as if you are saying that australians are above the law. i cant speak for everyone but i personally feel the death penalty itself is harsh, however those people were caught in indonesia, not australia so it is perfectly just to prosecute them under the laws of that country.
whether they are innocent or not is something the courts will have to decide, and in my opinion the indonesian courts have been incredibly fair so far, even allowing a CRIMINAL from australia into indonesia to act as a witness!
so what im trying to say is that although the death penalty may seem ridiculously harsh and stupid and unfair..its the law in indonesia and to them it is justice. we cant undermine their justice system just because its different to ours. the alledged smugglers committed the crime in their country not australia, so our customs and values are irrelevent. if the crime had been committed here, then im sure you would expect them to be punished consistently under our laws so justice can be served. the way we have been brought up in australia makes us see the death penalty as an extreme punishment for something as 'small' as drug smuggling but in many countries overseas they see it as the worse type of crime. who are we to put ourselves above their law? if a foreigner tried to undermine our laws in australia we would be outraged!
like not that bright said we cant enforce our opinions on the indonesians and undermine theirs, we have to educate them with what we believe is morally just and fair to everyone..not just particular people.
 

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Not-That-Bright said:
If the culture of the nation in general, feels that it is ok to kill blacks... we should try to educate them, beg them to stop, etc etc...
but we can't enforce our beliefs onto them! sure maybe if it's a rogue government or some group of rebels... but an entire nation state that is simply minding its business? no.
Great position, Not-That-Bright. What about Iraq? Wasn't it largely minding its own business when gassing the Kurds? Actually, what is a rogue nation-state? Is it one that deviates from the Western norm, or is one that disregards international institutions for 'petty' domestic reasons?

There is a 'right' way to intervene (UN/multilateral groups applying political/economic pressure) if something is seen as being unjust by others. Human rights are universal, despite claims that they are a Western ideal, and we cannot just ignore such abuses because it's 'their way'. Of course, trying to determine how to intervene is quite difficult, be it initially or after previous efforts have failed.

---

Another slight tangent: Prisoner exchange deal sought.
 
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Not-That-Bright

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Generator... I mean rogue government as in, the large majority of the people DON'T support it. I don't believe a government which deviates from the western norm or disregards international institutions is wrong at all... We are a world of nations, if one of these nations chooses to totally disreguard the rest of the world and live in a totally different way, not adversely affecting other nations, and with the support of the majority of their people - i can't see what's wrong with them?

In iraq you had a government in power that the large majority did NOT want.

I can't see where i've got a conflict of position.
 

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