Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

I pointed this out before.. they have no answer...
They either claim that they were praying to the same god... which i've pointed out has ALOT of serious problems...
Or they claim that those gods were wrong, however theirs is right... with no reason for this other than faith... which well.... read my last post.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Ok, i could not be bothered to read the entire thread right now cause i'm so tired, sorry if this type of question has already been asked in the thread...
I've got a query on this whole idea of religions. If you are religious, lets say a christian, how do you know that your God/diety/higher being is actually real and true? What about all those other ancient societies (for example Minoan, Ancient Egypt, Arkkadian) who had lived way before the creation of monotheisic religion? Do you think their religion(s) were accurate?

This is a supremely nailing question that we have asked, with no reply. In fact I find whenever you ask any religious person "What makes your religion right?" they always stumble, and end up avoiding the question (which is what I'm assuming will happen again).

 

[SmokedSalmon]

exactly what I find! it is so infuriating!
praying to the SAME god?? yes of course that would be a serious problem considering most of the old socities had a polytheisic (sp?) religion!
I guess I should go to a christian meeting at sydney uni and ask them that question! Should be fun, one non believer against 50 strong christians

 

[stamos]

(responding to something in moonlightsonata's last post)

though you have to admit that it's fucking easy to justify being agnostic

it's also fucking easy to shit on religious peoples' beliefs

go read judgements or something

 

[Not-That-Bright]

You think the answers get any better?
In the end.. they'll ask you some questions about the few things left that science can't explain.. and explain that that's god....

If you manage to really back them into a corner, they will get mad, Or they'll simply all say 'WHy can't you have faith! you cannot understand if you do not have faith'
As i explained earlier... they believe faith is a virtue, it's good to have 'faith' in the face of heaps of proof, it is good to defy logic... The more logic you can defy, and the more proof you can claim means nothing the stronger your 'faith' is.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

exactly why i am not agnostic... i don't really like the idea of sitting on the fence, however what is the difference between someone saying 'i believe in the christian god... except for these bits', having uncertainties and someone who isn't sure at all? Surely the christian god would punish them both equally....

The question is.. why is it so easy to 'shit on someones religious beliefs' however it's not so easy to shit on someones NON RELIGIOUS belief, this should be your first clue when you're thinking these things thru for urself...

Anyway... to get back to that guys point that perhaps the baby would grow up to be evil, this seems to explain away how the death of a baby could be a good thing...
However people who believe this should therefore not attempt to prevent evil from happening, as it must be a part of God's Great Plan...
Perhaps it would be a good idea to kill babies before they grow up and sin? I mean although killing the babies would be a sin, the greater good that they would be immediately transported to heaven and never sin seems to make sense... does it not?

LOL this is interesting...

"Two religious zealots were sentenced to several months of prison, and two received suspended sentences, for the 1993 exorcism death of Joan Vollmer, 49, Horsham, Australia, who died after her husband and 3 others held her on a chair for 4 hours in 102-degree heat, slapped her and stroked her carotid artery, triggering a heart attack"

 

[Comrade nathan]

DAMN i cant stand this.

God does exist. In each and everyone of us there are innate thoughts, but where do this innate thoughs come from. Since they are innate (come from inside us no the external world) The answer is god. When we are born how do know to make the connection to our mothers, when we get older how can we relate to people how do we have human nature in us. This are our innate thoughts, they come from god and are in ever one of us.

Thats was poor example of what someone could of said, but nooooooooo the theist didnt think of that did they.

The above does no represent my ideas i do not believe in innate ideas, i believe all ideas come the external world and we have no human nature and act they way we do due to our society.

But if some one had of mention innate thoughts they would of had some ground to stand on, they could of attacked us on epistemology. We could of got the ball rolling, if only some of you had read some works by some of the most famoust christain philosophers of the 15th 16th 17th 19th centuary. All you have shown to us atheist and agnostics that you area a bunch of naive christians, who only belief in god because it makes you happy not because you actually gave a though about the world you just skip around fucking whistle all day.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Oh i have to agree with you, if you've ever watched the series about how the human body works... you realise that basically as a baby we start of as nothing.... then immediately our brain starts gavering data.... that is of course assuming this is accurate... i'm just going by that

However i agree... I much prefer a discussion on the idea that innate ideas have to come from somewhere than a discussion where claims that ' I BELIEVE BECAUSE I BELIEVE ' are acceptable...

However even with that discussion, i'd point out that it is one of the few areas that science has yet to give much of an answer. God used to command the sun, earthquakes etc, however now .. most people including christians have realised that these occurances have been proven by science, thus they resort to concepts like these which we cannot yet explain.

My warning to people that follow these types of arguments is that eventually.. maybe even in your lifetime your view will be torn away from science, leaving god with very few mysteries left to command....

 

[MoonlightSonata]

(responding to something in moonlightsonata's last post)

though you have to admit that it's fucking easy to justify being agnostic

it's also fucking easy to shit on religious peoples' beliefs

go read judgements or something

In the words of not-that-bright, "thankyou wise one," for those insightful comments. We are all so much more enlightened for your very useful contributions to this discussion.

Of course its easy to justify being agnostic, because it is the most justifiable stance!

 

[Sophie777]

JouJou thatis rediculous. To condone the slaughter of 6 million jews just so they have their own state? What and youn don't think that hasnt caused many more wars? Do you think the jews in palestine are happy?

 

[joujou_84]

man i was half asleep last night. dont evn remember righting that, but anyway of course the jews are happy in palestine. well the ones on the other side. they are quite fine. the ones along the gaza strip are the ones copping it. but wat i meant was that everything has a reason, if something happens it has its positives and negatives. i dunno find an example and see if it has these negatives and positives. And anyway it seems that some of u think god is a man, or a statue, or some physical being. the first signs that lead me to believe their was a supreme being was like lifting a rock and finding an animal underneath it eating, now how does that animal find its food,who gives it its food, how does it know where to find it. now im not plugging the gap with god, but there must be a supreme being, a natural force or power doing this. if u were to tell me nature is responsible for this then i would believe in nature. which i do. god is nature, he is the sun the moon the stars, everything, he is not a man but a force an d a power so u tell me how u want me to prove to u that a power exists?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

man i was half asleep last night. dont evn remember righting that, but anyway of course the jews are happy in palestine. well the ones on the other side. they are quite fine. the ones along the gaza strip are the ones copping it. but wat i meant was that everything has a reason, if something happens it has its positives and negatives. i dunno find an example and see if it has these negatives and positives. And anyway it seems that some of u think god is a man, or a statue, or some physical being. the first signs that lead me to believe their was a supreme being was like lifting a rock and finding an animal underneath it eating, now how does that animal find its food,who gives it its food, how does it know where to find it. now im not plugging the gap with god, but there must be a supreme being, a natural force or power doing this. if u were to tell me nature is responsible for this then i would believe in nature. which i do. god is nature, he is the sun the moon the stars, everything, he is not a man but a force an d a power so u tell me how u want me to prove to u that a power exists?

You can't, hence there is no reason to believe it

 

[sub]

hey moonlight, hypothetical:

if someone proves the existence of god to you...would u convert/revert (whatever term the religion that u change to uses)?

 

[joujou_84]

You can't, hence there is no reason to believe it

ok wat do u believe in. wat made u, wat made everything around u, who gave u a brain. science? well if it is then "science" is my god. i dont think ur getting the concept of god. god is the person that made u, god is the one who judges u, trials u, gives u everything u have and if that to u is science or anything else then that is ur god. i believe my god made science, all these ppl that think ur soo good making laws and finding cures for diseases, they are doing this by the grace of god. u were a clot in ur mothers stomach and now ur a grown human being, u cant know things on ur own, there is a supreme being assisting u with everything u know and that is the meaning of god. its pretty simple. wat is ur meaning of god? maybe u have a different meaning of god and this is why u cant comprehend wat believers in god are saying

 

[Xayma]

My mother and father made me, after millions of years of evolution after amino acids and other basic building blocks were somehow created and somehow they ended up on Earth (if they were created here or on Mars or on Cardassia it is irrelevant) then over time, cells formed, they became sexual, evolution occured due to random mutations being beneficial etc etc my parents had sex, I was born. Does that mean my parents are gods? They have given me pretty much everything I have, again are they gods?

sub if that was the case then all of humanity would be agnostic at best or religion kept changing, if I believe there is no god of any type it will be hard to change me to believe. Any higher being I do not believe can exist, a being that controls us like we control mice on the other hand is possible but I do not believe they are higher then us, just different and possibly smarter.

Actually if it was God's plan to make Israel that means that humans have no free will. Hitler would have been made to work like that so would those who were instrumental in the development of Israel, had no free will.

A god that puts humanity gives them free will then punishes them forever because they do not believe in him/her/it is a tool who needs to punish things because he made a mistake, it is like giving a toddler a knife, and sticking it in a play pen if it cuts another child accidently you punish it even though you were the one who gave it the knife. If there is a god all beings must be accepted to humanity or they do not have the intelligence to realise they fucked up by putting them there. I would have rather not been born then suffer for eternity because God didnt give me the ability to believe because he is a dickhead.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Damn that is some reall bullshit there joujou_84 . Science was not 'made'. Sceince is a way of explaining the world in logice terms. If god was real scientist would explain him in words.

The animal under the rock is so fucking stupid example that my head is now hurting. If you cant grasp how animals eat then you a moron.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yes however in many muslim countries they supress the voice of science..

'maybe you can't comprehend what we're saying!'

does it make you feel special... that you have a god?... sounds like it.

"i believe my god made science, all these ppl that think ur soo good making laws and finding cures for diseases, they are doing this by the grace of god."

If God has made the world appear to be such a natural way (he creating evolution, science etc) why is there a need for a God? To fill in the few missing gaps we have left?

I'll give you another scenario.. lets assume a god did create our universe... what makes you so sure he's sticking around?
You gave me the scenario earlier of 'even tho he knows what i'm going to say it comforts mee to talk to him anyway... like a friend who already knows what you're going to say', that would be true... except he is omnipotent, omniscient.... It would be like us talking to an ant (if even). Why would anyone possibly bother? Is it not as justifiable that a god could have created this universe then left?

, now how does that animal find its food,who gives it its food, how does it know where to find it

LMFAO!
The animal is a part of the natural world, as we are... however it probably isn't sentient (aware of its own existance). It abides by the same rules as ours.

 

[joujou_84]

My mother and father made me, after millions of years of evolution after amino acids and other basic building blocks were somehow created and somehow they ended up on Earth (if they were created here or on Mars or on Cardassia it is irrelevant) then over time, cells formed, they became sexual, evolution occured due to random mutations being beneficial etc etc my parents had sex, I was born. Does that mean my parents are gods? They have given me pretty much everything I have, again are they gods?

sub if that was the case then all of humanity would be agnostic at best or religion kept changing, if I believe there is no god of any type it will be hard to change me to believe. Any higher being I do not believe can exist, a being that controls us like we control mice on the other hand is possible but I do not believe they are higher then us, just different and possibly smarter.

Actually if it was God's plan to make Israel that means that humans have no free will. Hitler would have been made to work like that so would those who were instrumental in the development of Israel, had no free will.



A god that puts humanity gives them free will then punishes them forever because they do not believe in him/her/it is a tool who needs to punish things because he made a mistake, it is like giving a toddler a knife, and sticking it in a play pen if it cuts another child accidently you punish it even though you were the one who gave it the knife. If there is a god all beings must be accepted to humanity or they do not have the intelligence to realise they fucked up by putting them there. I would have rather not been born then suffer for eternity because God didnt give me the ability to believe because he is a dickhead.

Also most people are strong enough to stand crucifixion for a few days, Jesus didn't even last one, he merely feel unconsious, which would explain how he came back to life.

ok firstly wat made these amino acids and building blocks, you ur self said 'somehow created". without god to make ur parents, u are not born, therefore ur parents didnt make u, god did.

secondaly u have free will, u choose to do wat u want except god knows wat this will be, but again it is ur free will, it is not predetermined, god is not evil to make u do something then punish u. u have the free will to do as u like, god guides u, he guides everyone but if are adament to be bad that is by ur free will.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

So god NEVER interferes?
So you admit that miracles are bs..

God didn't make his parents.... his parents came from his grandparents, his grandparents came form their parents... back down the lines to some simple bacteria on earth...
Again, you simply find gaps in things you presume science can't explain.. (i'm guessing there's a way to explain how the amino acids, building blocks are created, i'm sure you'll duck god into another gap when we proove that to you).

 

[Xayma]

Amino acids have been observed to be created by electrical currents inside ammonia rich environments such as the earlier earth, all that would have been required is lightning.

How is me not believing me being bad. I am a better person then the vast majority of christians. But because I don't believe in God I am going to hell. There are parts of the brain that are different sizes in Atheist and believers leading to the conclusion that some can not believe due to brain structure and others need to, now God made me, he made my brain that way, he can go fuck himself or his son, if he wants to punish me forever because he stuffed up and didn't make me want to believe.

But it is all destined to happen, Israel was destined to happen, my life was destined where the fuck is the free will in that.