Does God Exist? (3 Viewers)

[Sophie777]

I know what unclean means. But just because I haven't been bathed in holy water doesn't mean I am not clean of sins. And, I think that these interpretations of these verses are only people trying to fudge the agressiveness of the phrases by reorienting them to meaning something good. But, thats just me.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I'm glad you have come to the instant conclusion that i am either an idiot or a deciever.

Read what i mentioned about science.. and how as we make new discoveries it appears god has power over less and less things.... does that sound like a fairly justifiable argument?

You were the person who talked about the second law of thermodynamics right.... I found this interesting little article on it.

reationist arguments are often based on assuming that a scientific theory or law possesses an attribute that it does not, in fact, possess. The creationist thermodynamics argument is a typical example of how this technique is used to twist well established scientific principles into meaningless gibberish. The reader should refer to Chapter III of "Scientific Creationism," edited by Henry Morris of the Institute for Creation Research for specific details. This chapter can be summed up as follows.

Creationist claims:

1. The second law of thermodynamics requires that all systems and individual parts of systems have a tendency to go from order to disorder. The second law will not permit order to spontaneously arise from disorder. To do so would violate the universal tendency of matter to decay or disintegrate.

2. Creationists recognize that in many cases order does spontaneously arise from disorder: seeds grow into trees, eggs develop into chicks, crystalline salts form when a solution evaporates, and crystalline snowflakes form from randomly moving water vapor molecules. In cases like these, creationists have assigned an attribute that there must be a programmed energy conversion mechanism to direct the application of the energy needed to bring about the change.

3. This energy conversion mechanism is postulated to "overcome" the second law, thus allowing order to spontaneously arise from disorder.

4. Creationists believe that changes requiring human thought and effort, such as constructing a building, manufacturing an airplane, making a bed, writing a book, etc. are covered by the science of thermodynamics. Creationists believe that a wall will not build itself simply because to do so would violate the laws of thermodynamics. In building the wall, the stonemason overcomes the laws of thermodynamics!

5. In the case of organic change, like seeds growing into trees and chicks developing from eggs, creationists believe that the directed energy conversion mechanism that overcomes the laws of thermodynamics comes from God.

Comments on the above five claims:

1. The degree of thermodynamic disorder is measured by an entity called "entropy." There is a mathematical correlation between entropy increase and an increase in disorder. The overall entropy of an isolated system can never decrease. However, the entropy of some parts of the system can spontaneously decrease at the expense of an even greater increase of other parts of the system. When heat flows spontaneously from a hot part of a system to a colder part of the system, the entropy of the hot area spontaneously decreases! The ICR chapter states flatly that entropy can never decrease; this is in direct conflict with the most fundamental law of thermodynamics that entropy equals heat flow divided by absolute temperature.

2. There is no need to postulate an energy conversion mechanism. Thermodynamics correlates, with mathematical equations, information relating to the interaction of heat and work. It does not speculate as to the mechanisms involved. The energy conversion mechanism can not be expressed in terms of mathematical relationships or thermodynamic laws. Although it is reasonable to assume that complex energy conversion mechanisms actually exist, the manner in which these may operate is outside the scope of thermodynamics. Assigning an energy conversion mechanism to thermodynamics is simply a ploy to distort and pervert the true nature of thermodynamics.

3. The use and application of thermodynamics is strictly limited by the mathematical treatment of the basic equations of thermodynamics. There is no provision in thermodynamics for any mechanism that would overcome the laws of thermodynamics.

4. Thermodynamics does not deal with situations requiring human thought and effort in order to create order from disorder. Thermodynamics is limited by the equations and mathematics of thermodynamics. If it can't be expressed mathematically, it isn't thermodynamics!

Creationism would replace mathematics with metaphors. Metaphors may or may not serve to illustrate a fact, but they are not the fact itself. One thing is certain: metaphors are completely useless when it comes to the thermodynamics of calculating the efficiency of a heat engine, or the entropy change of free expansion of a gas, or the power required to operate a compressor. This can only be done with mathematics, not metaphors. Creationists have created a "voodoo" thermodynamics based solely on metaphors. This in order to convince those not familiar with real thermodynamics that their sectarian religious views have scientific validity.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I know what unclean means. But just because I haven't been bathed in holy water doesn't mean I am not clean of sins. And, I think that these interpretations of these verses are only people trying to fudge the agressiveness of the phrases by reorienting them to meaning something good. But, thats just me.

well a true atheist wouldn't even believe in sin... so the comment that we are 'unclean' doesn't really disturb me other than that it is assuming that you are more moral due to your religious belief...

 

[Sophie777]

Well i believe in the concept of sin in the sense that I believe we do things wrong by both our morals and the basic value system of most in society. However, yes in the religious sense I don't believe in sin. However, I am not an atheist. I am unsure.

 

[Sophie777]

Were you talking to me? Cos i didn't say your interpretations were wrong.

 

[Wilmo]

Excellent, one of the bible-quoting christians...
Yea, and instead they got a man who promised them power greater than the romans... and told them about the bad things that would happen to the romans when they die, and the good things that would happen to them..Doesn't sound that bad does it?

Find me any reference where Jesus came to make sure "bad things" would happen to the Romans. I may be missing something, but I do not know anywhere that supports this claim. The people thought this is what the messiah would do yes... but i dont know anywhere that says it was definately what he was going to do.

You said yourself... paul killed christians, doesn't sound like a very good person...

You're right... he wasn't a good person. But christianity doesn't have much to do with being a good person. Granted christians are called to live "good" lives, but becoming and staying a christian rests on grace. What Jesus did by living a sinless life, he did as a representitive of man, thus repairing the relationship broken by mans first representitive Adam.

Saying that people have gone through terrible pains for their religions means that god exists...

Im not sure, but I dont think i was trying to use that as an example to show God exists, i was trying to use it to show you that christianity does not offer the hope of a good life.

People have poisoned themselves in our lifetimes for fake dieties...

I dont think thats a relevent thing. It may be, but ill tell you why I dont think it is:

If I believe that my diety is omnipotent, shouldn't it go with out saying that if he wanted me to die, then I would die without my own help? Any "god" that requires you to kill yourself obviously isnt a god because they have no power over you.

how many people have become martyrs for Islam, or are they excluded from this view?

I dont think they are excluded from what i was saying at all. I was saying that christianity doesnt offer the security of a safe and comfortable life. I can't say i know much about Islam, but if they arent promised a safe and comfortable life either, then surely they are included.

I'm sorry that i didn't explain myself properly, when i said 'live happily ever after', i meant that when they die they will go to a nice place if they are good, evil people will be killed, etc etc. Again, alot of religions and false dieties that you can see on the nightly news have offered hope of a future glory...

Just because you are good does not guarentee you are good enough for heaven. If God is a higher being, how could you ever be sure that your standards of goodness were acceptable to him. He wouldnt measure you against other people, he'd measure you against himself. Who could withstand such a harsh critic? Surely noone...

Again i can only speak for christianity, but my future glory is not based on my own merely human performance, but on the performance of my messiah. The one who was promised would take my sins upon himself and make me blameless, the one who would fulfill the law and show me how far below Gods standards I fall, yet say "you do not have to worry, as your representitive I have done what needs to be done. You can now be sure of salvation because it no longer rests on you to live up to an impossible standard."

Why do you pray then? I do not doubt that nothing would happen if your prayers weren't supported by action... what i do say to you however is that if you had action unsupported by prayers the SAME THINGS WOULD STILL HAPPEN.

Say you knew someone so well and cared about them, you knew everything they were going to say before they said it, would you still talk to them? I guess thats how I feel about praying. Id rather have my friends say to me what I know they were going to say, then sit there in an akward silence.

The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Not only do I do it because its common courtesy to talk to someone if they talk to you, but because what I pray can change Gods mind about things. Sometimes people want to give you something if youd only just ask. So i believe if I ask, then I will get an aswer.

That's like christians claiming that door-knocking christians don't represent christianity.
Or that with their wars that they caused a few hundred years ago ... ' OH! That was a different Christianity! they had it ALLLL wrong'.

Door knocking christians do represent christianity... its when people take christianity and add stuff or manipulate it that they dont offer christianity. If i were to tell people what I think, then Im not representing God, im representing myself.

Im not blaming a different christianity because christianity doesnt change... its people that do stupid stuff with religion

 

[Sophie777]

You are one of many billion. God will not answer your prayer. How trivial a god would be to answer a single persons prayer when many are praying opposing things or perhaps for themselves, something similiar.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Find me any reference where Jesus came to make sure "bad things" would happen to the Romans. I may be missing something, but I do not know anywhere that supports this claim. The people thought this is what the messiah would do yes... but i dont know anywhere that says it was definately what he was going to do.

Saying that those who do not believe will be damned? Them going to hell was obviously a indirectly effected by this...

You're right... he wasn't a good person. But christianity doesn't have much to do with being a good person. Granted christians are called to live "good" lives, but becoming and staying a christian rests on grace. What Jesus did by living a sinless life, he did as a representitive of man, thus repairing the relationship broken by mans first representitive Adam.

So it is fair that a murderer who repents before their death be given the same place in heaven as the people he killed? If so i wonder how many innocent victims have gotten a shock when their murderer has appeared in heaven with them...

Just because you are good does not guarentee you are good enough for heaven. If God is a higher being, how could you ever be sure that your standards of goodness were acceptable to him. He wouldnt measure you against other people, he'd measure you against himself. Who could withstand such a harsh critic? Surely noone...

Someone who stands by and watches children die? I thought god was bound by his own rules, if so then by his inaction is he not a murderer? what about letting a plane crash when he could stop it? What about the 'miracles' where one person survives a plane crash... that must mean that therefor it is a miracle that the other people died too, therefore god killed and broke his covenant.

Let me explain the logic of your whole... 'guy who died for my sins thing',

# How was this a selfless sacrifice? He was marched up the hill by a bunch of heavily armed centurions. Was he really saying things like "No, it's okay, I want to do this. It's part of The Plan, you see."? (It has to be said that many human sacrifices do willingly go to their deaths, sure in the belief that they are doing it for the good of their people, and that their deity actually exists. They don't usually magically manipulate events to ensure that it happens, however...)
# Maybe it somehow was a selfless sacrifice. In this case, why was it necessary for Jesus to be killed by the state? Why not just say to his disciples "Well guys, it's time to say Goodbye." and throw himself under the nearest chariot? Death is death. Did the manner in which Christ died actually make any difference?
# It has never been adequately explained how this death freed us all from sin. If the death freed us from the consequences of sin (hell, or eternal oblivion), it is still unclear as to why it had to happen in this particular way. Why didn't God just sort it all out during Creation?
# If Jesus is God, then how do we know he really suffered? Is it possible to inflict physical pain on an immortal, omnipotent entity? (see Suffering below) Maybe he was just faking it for the crowd...
# If Jesus is God, then how was it a sacrifice? He only had to spend a few days "dead", then it was back home to Heaven (and he knew all this beforehand, being omniscient). A few days in the underworld can hardly have been a big deal for an eternal, omnipotent deity, can it? (And of course, being omnipresent as well, he would already have been there all the time anyway.)
# What was he doing during those three days? (Some people say he was preaching to the lost souls in Hell.) Why three days anyway? Coming back to life after a couple of weeks would have impressed the superstitious locals much more.
# If Jesus willingly went to the cross, was it then a suicide? Isn't suicide a Big Bad Sin? There seems to be a very fine line between sacrificing yourself and committing suicide... (Of course, in Jesus' case, he sacrificed himself to himself without actually dying, just to confuse matters further).
# Why didn't he stay dead? Not much of a sacrifice if you spring back to life a few days later, is it (especially if that was your intention right from the start)?
# If Jesus had it all planned from the start (if you believe in the older prophecies), then it certainly was not a sacrifice. He must have used his God-Magic to manipulate events and ensure that the crucifixion occurred. This would include making Judas betray him.
# Why is Judas so reviled? If he acted with Jesus' blessing, or even under divine coercion from Jesus, why is he portrayed as a bad person? Either way, he helped the crucifixion take place, so surely christians should admire him. Without Judas they might not have been Saved, or Jesus might have lived a lot longer and they'd have a much less impressive ornament to hang round their necks as a symbol of his death. A runaway horse maybe, or a slippery banana-skin or perhaps a poorly cooked chicken leg.
# Why didn't Jesus let the disciples in on the big secret beforehand?
# If Judas had not given Jesus a big ol' smacker, would nobody have known who he was? Had he been preaching, healing and overturning tables with a mask on, so that the only way in which the "great multitude" who came for him could recognise him was through Judas' kiss? Perhaps Jesus had a twin brother, and only Judas could easily tell them apart? Perhaps the other disciples were all wearing "Jesus Masks" to throw the crowd off the scent? Judas' part in all this would seem to be quite redundant if Jesus were at all recognisable to his enemies...

Basically...The idea of God sacrificing himself to himself, in order to prevent himself sending us all to Hell for commiting sins because of the way he made us, and which he knew we were going to do anyway.. is just weird.


Now some questions for you, i'd like them answered as no theist has really been bothered to give them the time of day.

An atheist will encounter many and varied claims for the existence of a particular deity. It only seems reasonable to ask for some sort of tangible evidence to back up these claims, does it not? After all, if I ran into the room and shouted "I have just seen a UFO! I was this close to being abducted!", you might not immediately take my word for it. You might well ask for some evidence, such as a photograph (autographed if possible), or strange alien artifact. You might go to the location where I claim to have seen the spaceship, and inspect it for yourself. You could probably think up a number of alternative explanations for what I said I saw. If I fail to support my claims, why on earth should you take my word for it?

Many common reasons for belief in god...

"Look around you! How can you witness the beauty of God-X's Creation and still disbelieve. Look at the trees, the birds, the bunnies!"
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* Many other religions make exactly the same claim. Why is your one special? Surely the trees, bunnies etc. are therefore equally valid proof of the existence of hundreds of other gods? One supernatural explanation is just as valid as any other.
* Unfortunately, everything you describe can also be explained in mundane, rational, scientific terms, without the need to invoke a Creator.
* What about the nasty things in life? Guinea worms, anthrax, mosquitoes; all the blood-sucking, parasitical, disease-bearing, poisonous beasties that kill us and each other in horrific ways? Watched any nature programmes recently?

"Six hundred million people follow my religion. They can't all be wrong - there must be something in it."
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* Nine hundred million people follow religion Z. Are they all wrong? Truth is not democratic - you can't vote for objective reality.
* Maybe they are right. Maybe their god exists as well as your god?
* If they're wrong, couldn't you also be wrong? After all, they seem to believe at least as strongly and sincerely as you do, and for many of the same reasons...

"I have personally witnessed a miracle. I can trust my senses."
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* Lots of people have personally witnessed Elvis working at the Drive-Thru. Should I believe them also? Without any sort of evidence, personal subjective testimony is not very convincing.
* Many people from other religions claim to have witnessed miracles. Does this mean that their God also exists? Just how many Gods are there?
* Are you positive that Divine Intervention is the only possible explanation for what you saw?

"My God is a living God. All those other ones are just ancient myths."
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* Those gods were "living Gods" to the people who believed in them. Zeuss, Odin and Jupiter once had followers every bit as devout as you.
* Many of the "ancient" religions still have active, devout, sincere followers. Just like you. Why should I accept your claims over theirs identical ones?
* How many people claim to worship dead gods?

"We are God's Chosen People."
What's wrong with this? Several things:

* So why doesn't he look after you a bit better? How many of his followers have suffered or died recently? Statistically, are you any better off than followers of other religions?
* Again, the same claim is made by other religions. How do I know they aren't the Chosen Ones?
* So what are the rest of us here for? What about the ones living in remote villages who will live their entire lives without even hearing of your god?

"If the probability of something happening is less than about 1e-15 (or 0.000000000000001) it is considered to be impossible. The probability of life occuring 'by accident' is far less than this, therefore it must be a miracle caused by God.."

What's wrong with this? Several things:

* It ignores the size of the universe. There are hundreds of billions of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions of stars, any of which might have planets capable of supporting life. Even an "impossibly improbable" event is almost a certainty (and we already know of one planet that supports life).
* Statistics are fun, aren't they? Shuffle a deck of playing cards, and lay them out on a table. The probability of the sequence you see appearing is 1/52 for the first card, 1/52 x 1/51 at the second card, 1/52 x 1/51 x 1/50 by the third card and so on. The probability that you produced the sequence you just did is 1/52 x 1/51 x 1/50......x 1/3 x 1/2 x 1/1 ( more simply, 1/(52!) ), or 1.2398e-68 (which is an incredible 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000012398). How can this be?!? Maybe you are hallucinating and it did not actually occur?

You have just done something statistically impossible, trillions of times more unlikely than the formation of life (some say 1e-50 is the "impossibility threshold" instead, but we've beaten that as well). You could even do it six times before breakfast every day!

 

[joujou_84]

ok so that took a while but i managed to read it. first of all u need to believe in god, then u search for a religion. we have established that u cant prove his existence, u can only feel it in ur heart and see it as ur logic. next step, look for a religion. i dont mean to offend anyone, this is merely a disscusion but take confucias (wait is that how u spell it) anyway its more proverbs than religion. dosent tell u where were going, what to do with life. didnt answer my questions, just proverbs. moving along chrsitainity, i dont get the whole god has a son concept. if god is absolute and powerful he dont need no son and him dying for ppl dosent fit either coz why would he die for ppl who would then go on to kill and murder and stuff. i can hardly say we are a society that deserves someone sacrificing themselves for us. the bible got me confused, too many editions and i found it a bunch of stories which went into specific detail about locations and ages and even wieght and height of ppl involved in the story. anyway cut the story short. reached islam, answered all my questions, where im going? why im her. made most sense, provided me with a way to live my life. theres answers to everything. therefore u cant just say 6 million follow this religion so lets join as well (coz hey they must be right). we cant follow out of fear, we need to believe coz our heart tells us this is true. damn i forgot what else u said, now i gotta read it again

 

[joujou_84]

oh ok, now most religions present the view that we have been created to be trialled. so imagine a world where everything is perfect. no killing, no babies dying, no snakes, spiders everything is just great. well wheres the trial in that. we are faced with bad things in life to test our faith and to make us appreciate what we have or had. we have to have bad experiences in life so that we can be trialled, but this cant be applied to an athiest, it only applies to someone who believes in god. ur a faced with trails in life so that god can test ur patience and ur faith in him. how come if soemone wins the 1st prize in the lottery they dont say god is bad for making everyone else lose but if they lost suddenly god is bad, he didnt help them to win. what is good for someone is bad for another. man i just confused myself. what im tryin to say is that god knows best and if a baby is killed young it could be coz perhaps that baby would grow up to be a hitler or something, but if u dont believe in god then u dont believe anythign i just said right now.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Then why doesn't god instead not allow him to grow up to be hitler?
why death? is there no other solution from an omnipotent being?

 

[joujou_84]

Then why doesn't god instead not allow him to grow up to be hitler?
why death? is there no other solution from an omnipotent being?

oh my god, where do u get ur energy from. im too tired to use my brain anymore. god knows best. y wuld u want him to grow up to be a hitler, if he did then ud say god is evil for creating such humans

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yes i would.
But I believe god could find another way to stop a hitler...
And lets remember, already DOES allow for people like hitler to live.... He let the person most like hiter - HITLER - live after all..

 

[joujou_84]

Yes i would.
But I believe god could find another way to stop a hitler...
And lets remember, already DOES allow for people like hitler to live.... He let the person most like hiter - HITLER - live after all..

ur a classic. i give up. im going to sleep

 

[joujou_84]

but god knows wats best. that hitler killed 6 million jews but the holocaust also saw the rest of the jews find themselves a state, plaestine. everything happenes for a reason

 

[fatmuscle]

this is quite a long winded thread

 

[Not-That-Bright]

It's a big issue.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

A Summary

Man this thread is like a ravenous virus... please excuse me for trying to contain it to what is relevant when I give the following summary as to what has happened in the last 10 or so pages. It may sound offensive, I'm sorry. But I'm simply attempting to pull this back into perspective - that is, a discussion of "does God exist?" People seem to be forgetting that -- anyway --

- Superbird has professed his opinion that his faith is enough (another useless empty statement that adds nothing to the debate)

- thejosiekiller has again stated that everyone is entitled to their own faith (once again that is common sense and we are talking about the existence of God, stop going on about tolerance please)

- not-that-bright seems to have, in parts, increased his post length by 300%, which apart from being slightly onerous to read provides a lot of very good points and has maintained common sense throughout

- Aramani has given us a view about tolerenace, "let everyone have their faith" (again, don't worry, we accept that, and we all get it, but we're not discussing that, we're talking about reasons for the existence of God - so far there are none)

- joujou has talked about how we can't show that God exists, "simply because you can't see it, doesn't mean its not there" (obviously, but if you can't prove it why would you believe in it?)

- sophie777 has been providing general common sense and is keeping groundless claims at bay

- jm1234567890 seems to be asking people philosophical questions in a neutral manner, albeit on a tangent

- musashi has talked about how good christianity is (which is completely irrelevant to the question of whether god exists), and discussed the bible (which cannot be used to prove the existence of God because it is circular reasoning). musashi has also professed a loving belief in God without any reason why God actually exists.

- comrade nathan has used some interesting rhetoric + common sense...

- wilmo is talking about the goodness of faith... again irrelevant to whether God exists

- then there was some talk about terrorists

- then for some reason there have been arguments about Bible verses!? Someone explain to me how that is relevant?

- wilmo again goes on about christianity being good... irrelevant

All in all, I still don't see any reasons in front of us to show that God exists.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

In the end i have come to the conclusion, that once all the rest of their 'proof' gets discredited they move back to 'i believe because of faith', or something along those lines... which makes absoblutely no sense to me...(however apparently you need to have faith to understand faith... which makes me wonder how in the world they got faith to begin with, you're not BORN with a belief in god...)

 

[SmokedSalmon]

Ok, i could not be bothered to read the entire thread right now cause i'm so tired, sorry if this type of question has already been asked in the thread...
I've got a query on this whole idea of religions. If you are religious, lets say a christian, how do you know that your God/diety/higher being is actually real and true? What about all those other ancient societies (for example Minoan, Ancient Egypt, Arkkadian) who had lived way before the creation of monotheisic religion? Do you think their religion(s) were accurate? Or was it all poppycock?
I think that religion is merely created for us to feel we have a purpose to life in this world. Well those who believe in it anyway.